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The Witcher 2[Issue] Recovery frame (I can haz "input lag"?) (25 posts)(25 posts)
(25 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted July 11, 2011
Introduction
Been seeing users complaining about "input lag", not sure what exactly they mean by that. But I would like to present a case of my own, although I'm not sure if "input lag" is the right word for it. It would be more aptly described as inconsistent recovery frames.

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Pause between action 1 and action 2
So what I have noticed is that after executing action 1, depending on your action 2, the recovery time can vary quite signifcantly. For example,
Action 1 = getting hit by an enemy
a) Action 2 = moving (e.g. WASD): full recovery frames
b) Action 2 = blocking: full recovery frames
c) Action 2 = everything else (e.g. dodging, casting signs, attacking): partial recovery frames

Note:
1. By "full recovery frames", I mean Geralt
a) bends his knees further
b) returns to a neutral position
c) slight pause (not sure how long this is)
d) execute action

2. By "partial recovery frames", I mean Geralt
a) bends his knees further
b) execute action
This seems roughly 2x faster than "full recovery frames"

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Videos and gif animations
To give a better illustration to this issue, I thought some visual example is of vital importance.

1. Youtube video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uckcoidTBU

2. Gif files (Mediafire)
http://www.mediafire.com/?p30a1o935mc4g

Note:
1. I used GIF's because I think it simulates a frame-by-frame shot of what is happening. Take note of how long Geralt recovers after getting hit on each scenario.

2. To make the GIF's, I recorded the gameplay with FRAPS. I then played the video in VLC while taking screenshots with FRAPS. I re-saved the screenshots as GIFS and used UnFREEz to stitch the individual GIFs together.

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PC specs
Maybe it's just an issue with my hardware/software?

AMD Phenom II x4 955
6GB DDR3 RAM
OCZ Vertex 1 SSD (60GB)
NVIDIA GTX 460 768MB (Driver version: 275.33)
Windows 7 64-bit

FPS of 35-40 around the ballista used for the example.

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I would like to see if other users have a similar issue, and what do you all think about this issue. That is all.
Post edited July 11, 2011 by vAddicatedGamer
Posted July 11, 2011
I would like to see the gifs, so I can compare, but the link sends me to "you need to set up an account NOW".
Posted July 11, 2011
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AudreyWinter: I would like to see the gifs, so I can compare, but the link sends me to "you need to set up an account NOW".
Wait a sec... imma gonna look into this issue.

My bad... didn't get the correct link. It's fixed now (hopefully).
Post edited July 11, 2011 by vAddicatedGamer
Posted July 11, 2011
Good work OP. I think it's inconsistent recovery frames as well. Which means we can't build up any muscle memory for the combat. We can't get a feel for it. I'm just wondering what role different hardware plays in all this.

And on a side note, they really need to reduce the recharge time on the medallion if we can't have a highlight option like we did in TW1.
Posted July 11, 2011
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vAddicatedGamer: Introduction
Been seeing users complaining about "input lag", not sure what exactly they mean by that. But I would like to present a case of my own, although I'm not sure if "input lag" is the right word for it. It would be more aptly described as inconsistent recovery frames.
I can assure you that anyone talking about "input lag" is talking about something completely different than what you've presented here. (That's not to say one problem is more important than the other.) I also doubt it has anything to do with your PC hardware.
Posted July 12, 2011
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greg.smalter: I can assure you that anyone talking about "input lag" is talking about something completely different than what you've presented here. (That's not to say one problem is more important than the other.) I also doubt it has anything to do with your PC hardware.
There are different kinds of "input lag", but I thought this inconsistency in recovery frame tend to exhibit something resembling an input lag. So this might be one of the cases people are talking about.
Post edited July 12, 2011 by vAddicatedGamer
Posted July 12, 2011
Thanks, we're definitely going to look into it.
Post edited July 12, 2011 by Marcin360
Posted July 12, 2011
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Marcin360: Thanks, we're definitely going to look into it.
Good to hear. In particular, could you try to do to casting signs and throwing bombs/knives what you did to blocking? You can roll straight out of a block, and block straight out of a roll, but if you want to cast a sign after rolling, you have to wait for Geralt to stop, straighten up, comb his hair and flex a little before he'll respond to you frantically mashing on the button.

If throwing and casting was as quick and responsive as blocking, it'd make the combat far, far smoother-flowing.
Posted July 12, 2011
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Marcin360: Thanks, we're definitely going to look into it.
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dominicwhite: Good to hear. In particular, could you try to do to casting signs and throwing bombs/knives what you did to blocking? You can roll straight out of a block, and block straight out of a roll, but if you want to cast a sign after rolling, you have to wait for Geralt to stop, straighten up, comb his hair and flex a little before he'll respond to you frantically mashing on the button.

If throwing and casting was as quick and responsive as blocking, it'd make the combat far, far smoother-flowing.
I agree with this. And thanks for the response Marcin, hope you guys can iron this out.
Posted July 12, 2011
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dominicwhite: You can roll straight out of a block, and block straight out of a roll, but if you want to cast a sign after rolling, you have to wait for Geralt to stop, straighten up, comb his hair and flex a little before he'll respond to you frantically mashing on the button.
But isn't that somehow logical and realistic that it's easier for Geralt to come out of a roll with a block - which he performs with his sword that is in his hands all the time, so he would probably be capable of doing it as he is a great swordsman - than to come out of a roll, take a dagger out of his belt and then aim it and throw it?
Posted July 12, 2011
I don't know if my following quote is really relevant in this thread but I'll just put it here too. So from the patch discussion thread, I copy-paste my opinion in this so called "input lag" thing:


Count me as one that believes that instant responsiveness reduces believability.

I understand that many gamers are used to have their avatar in a game to respond instantly to any key command but this is only because almost 99% of all games ever have done that and they are used to it.

It always bothered me in games when my character starts to do something and the moment that I press a button he could just change what he did instantly and do something else entirely. Is this possible in real life much less in a swordfight?
Can you imagine a warrior slashing his sword downwards and because he somehow needs to block, stop in mid-air in a blink of an eye and do a blocking defensive motion? THIS IS NOT POSSIBLE. The sword has momentum and no human or mutant being can stop that motion, turn the sword and do a different motion in such a short notice.

Nevertheless almost all games allow it and we gamers are used to it. It still bothers me. I REALLY appreciate that in the Witcher 2, Geralt cannot just flash-block or do entirely different moves the moment a button is pressed. I appreciate this immensely. It gives combat a more "hardcore" feel, it feels realistic and it engage me as a player much more than the usual "insta-reactions".

So I believe that Cd Projekt Red has set the bar for innovation in new heights again. Let's not just shoot them down for it. Just think about it.


P.S. Don't get me wrong. I don't mean the input "freeze" problem that some users are reporting. I haven't experienced it but I understand those who do. It must be frustrating. But let's not confuse this problem with the more believable combat moves of Geralt. Even CDP_RED_Team posted above and said that it is intentional and I do believe them.

The only reason that I'm posting this is that he said that they are going to look into this. I really don't want a very good and innovative feature to just vanish because most gamers don't like change.

So PLEASE CD Projekt Red, fix the input "freezes" but do NOT change the believable combat animations to more insta-move ones. You need to be different from other game developers. This is the way that you started making a name in the industry. Don't go and try what others do. Just do your thing and the gamers, especially PC gamers will appreciate it.
At the very least make it an option and put it there for the gamers to choose if they want their game more flash-action moves or realistic and believable combat moves.
Posted July 12, 2011
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Bowmangr: ...
Beautiful post, I agree with every word. I think we're just used to action games with super fluid and responsive movements that we instantly expect the same from every game. And when they don't work that way, we get frustrated. TW2 combat does require a little bit of patience and thinking ahead, which isn't very common with current games.
Post edited July 12, 2011 by dnna
Posted July 12, 2011
I'm not asking for you to be able to skip out of a roll straight into casting a sign instantly. What I'm asking for is for the 'cool-off' animations to be interruptible. If the game lets you switch straight into a blocking stance from the end of a roll (once you've got your feet back on the ground), then you shouldn't have a full second-long delay of Geralt just standing doing nothing before you can do any other action.

It wouldn't break immersion, because it'd be almost imperceptible, visually. If it looks fine with him bringing up his sword after dodging, it won't look wrong if he can immediately throw a knife instead.
Posted July 12, 2011
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Bowmangr: ...
I understand your concern, but you are missing the point - at least you are missing the point of the OP. Your example: changing instantly into a block while in the middle of an attack animation - this is different from the case presented here.

The issue presented here is the inconsistency in the recovery time. It's not about wanting Geralt to respond instantaneously, but to respond in a consistent manner. As it stands now, how fast Geralt recovers from a hit (among other things) depends on what his second action is, which is rather odd; especially when if he was running prior to getting hit, he'll recover much faster but if he was standing still prior to getting hit, he'll recover significantly slower.

I hope you understand that responsive and consistent combat control is not synonymous to instantaneous or unrealistic combat, contrary to what you suggest.
Posted July 12, 2011
It's a copy-paste from another thread, but relevant here:

There are two issues.

1: A bug, whereby almost all controls lock up until you perform a very specific action to unfreeze it. I actually managed to save game while in this bizarre frozen state, but upon loading that save, no controls work AT ALL except for rotating the camera around Geralt. I created a thread with the attached save-game here, so one of the developers can analyze it:

http://www.gog.com/en/forum/the_witcher_2/bug_report_controls_lagging_locking_up_entirely_save_game_with_evidence_included

2: A balance issue with the animations, as Koschay has identified. It's hugely inconsistent right now. You can link some animations, but not others.Swing-Sign is a valid combo. Swing-Block works too. Swing-Block-Roll-Swing? All good. Roll-sign? Doesn't happen. The entire rolling animation has to complete, right up to Geralt assuming a fully neutral pose before you can cast a sign (at least a full second pause, long enough to die horribly), wheras you'd be able to instantly switch from the roll into a sword attack or block.

Thrown weapons are even worse in this situation than signs, because they currently cannot be linked into any animation. Even from running, you have to stop, pause, wait, THEN you can throw a knife or bomb.

People have no problem with being able to go straight into a melee attack out of a roll, and then into a sign.., so why should anyone object to being able to do the reverse? Roll-Sign-Sword should be just as acceptable as Roll-Sword-Sign.

The two issues shouldn't be conflated. One is a bug that affects the game so deeply that it's recorded in save games. The other is an issue with combat animations not behaving consistently, allowing some moves while blocking others unless prefaced with certain other moves.

If you could chain all of the basic moves in the same fashion - I'm not saying being able to interrupt animations, merely link them - then nobody would be complaining. As it stands, some things chain smoothly, others just cause Geralt to stand around doing nothing at all while you helplessly mash buttons.
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The Witcher 2[Issue] Recovery frame (I can haz "input lag"?) (25 posts)(25 posts)
(25 posts)