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Jonesy89: The thing that irritated me about that story is that I don't buy the reason behind Yennefer's approach. Sapkowski establishes that only unattractive women get to practice magic, because their families want to marry off anyone good looking; it's horrible, but it's in line with the tone of the setting, so I was ok with it as a logical outgrowth of the established setting. Where I started groaning was when the story stated that business about "the prestige of the profession" requiring using magic to alter their looks; if Sapkowski wanted to show that sexism is pervasive to the point that even having access to magic (which by all rights should put a person in the best position possible to say nuts to societal norms) won't will still result in society dicking you over, he didn't do a terribly great job establishing it. If that was the atmosphere that Yennefer had to work with, both when dealing with magical and non-magical people, I might be able to see her as being in a position where it would make sense for her to start thinking that the only way to make any progress would be by seduction; the problem is, without that establishment, all that's left is a character who wields the power cosmic to the point that the norms of common society should be as so much Vegemite, yet she goes straight to aiming below the belt (pun very much intended) without any discernible reason (to me, at least).
That's certainly a valid reading. When re-reading that story, I interpreted the explanation of sorceresses having to make themselves pretty for "the prestige of the profession" as being Geralt's own rather sexist thinking. Then, when Yennefer casts him under her spell, she tells him he's paying for his insolence and his disrespect. The vehemence with which she says this does more to convince me that this insolence and disrespect is all too common among men in her experience, that the "prestige of the profession" is something that men assume and women have to conform to. Hence, she treats men with derision, using them ruthlessly as a way of fighting back. This also fits with the fact that she is apparently flouting both the law and her own society of sorcerers by taking up residence in Rinde.

I don't think this idea was particularly well executed, but I think it may have been what Sapkowski was going for. I do wonder if this is clearer in the original Polish.

Anyway, sorry for getting so off-topic.
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Waltorious: I got the impression she was the opposite of a prude.
Yeah, she actively tried to cultivate that impression.

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UniversalWolf: I do not recall her making those statements.
Part 1, right near the top:

...obviously it’s sexist and objectifying to make a game in which every time you sleep with a woman, you get a collectable card with her picture on it.
As in, it's not even necessary for me to provide supporting evidence because it's axiomatic.

Part 2:

In the (sexist, bullshit) commodity model of sex, where women are vending machines, all women offer sex in return for something, it’s just that sex workers are the ones who are honest and upfront about the exact price. So, the Gossip exchanged sex for some red gloves, but you had to guess at what she wanted, and that was part of the challenge. The identical and nameless women on the street helpfully labelled “Hooker” or “Harbor Whore” don’t actually tell you a straight-up price either, but it’s easy enough to guess – jewellery or gold over a certain amount.
Again, axiomatic. Really the whole article is loaded with these kind of statements. In fact it's quite easy to find comments in that article that demean men as a whole, using nothing but the author's preconceived biases as evidence. That's real sexism.

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UniversalWolf: Yes, we could have a discussion about the portrayal of men in the game, and we could come up with plenty of valid criticisms of that too (in spite of your belief that we shouldn't worry about it). But the fact that we can do that in no way changes or diminishes the discussion about how women are portrayed in the game.
Actually it's entirely germane, because it's clear that the portrayal of women in the game is in no way out of line with the way human beings and human-like creatures as a whole are portrayed in the game. Selectively isolating the portrayal of women for criticism is ridiculous, just as isolating the portrayal or men for criticism would be ridiculous. They're both part of a single milieu.

...But a lot of these portrayals of female characters become so ingrained that players don't notice them, or don't think they matter, which can in turn lead to the portrayals becoming accepted as normal, and people viewing real women the same way they are portrayed in works of fiction like The Witcher. Which definitely can be a problem.
I don't think it is a problem at all, but if it is why is it any more problematic for women than it is for men?

I don't believe a game like The Witcher causes anyone to believe anything about anyone, and if it did the most likely outcome would be to create a sense of self-loathing in human beings. But really, the game is inherently an un-reality and that's largely the point of its existence. It's a nasty world full of nasty people and things: a world where violence and mayhem on the part of the player are justifiable.
Post edited September 23, 2014 by UniversalWolf
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UniversalWolf: Part 1, right near the top:

...obviously it’s sexist and objectifying to make a game in which every time you sleep with a woman, you get a collectable card with her picture on it.
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UniversalWolf: As in, it's not even necessary for me to provide supporting evidence because it's axiomatic.

Part 2:

In the (sexist, bullshit) commodity model of sex, where women are vending machines, all women offer sex in return for something, it’s just that sex workers are the ones who are honest and upfront about the exact price. So, the Gossip exchanged sex for some red gloves, but you had to guess at what she wanted, and that was part of the challenge. The identical and nameless women on the street helpfully labelled “Hooker” or “Harbor Whore” don’t actually tell you a straight-up price either, but it’s easy enough to guess – jewellery or gold over a certain amount.
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UniversalWolf: Again, axiomatic. Really the whole article is loaded with these kind of statements. In fact it's quite easy to find comments in that article that demean men as a whole, using nothing but the author's preconceived biases as evidence. That's real sexism.
You're right, I'd forgotten about those statements. But by the end of the series, she's changed her tone a bit:

My speculation is that the cards were not really intended by the developers to be a collectable mini-game at all. I think that, lacking the technology to create high quality, sexy, animated cut-scenes, they just wanted to give the players something visual. I can’t blame them – The Witcher uses an older BioWare engine than Dragon Age: Origins, and if you’ve seen the animated sex scenes in that game, you’ll know that a fade-to-black and a little picture would have been a goddamn blessing. I’m not even sure they’re even intended to be “cards”, so much as vague pictorial indication of the nature of the sexytiems that just happen to have portrait-orientation and decorative borders. There are no cards in The Witcher 2, and I’m guessing it’s because the animations are pretty enough that they can rely on those for sexy visuals now.

As far as I can tell, it’s players who have assumed that the pictures are “cards”, and interpreted them as a collectable mini-game. Players who have counted them up and worked out how many it’s possible to get, who have viewed everything through their min-maxed powergamer goggles that tell them that IF you can collect it, a “true gamer” MUST collect it. And before you say anything, yes, I include myself among those players.
She does still criticize the gift-exchange-for-sex aspect, which I think is fair, as most of the sexual encounters work that way. But she also notes things like:

Let’s stay on the subject of consent, and talk about some positives. For the most part, I didn’t see Gilgamesh pressuring women into sex – if anything, the reverse was true. By a country mile, the character with the least respect for sexual boundaries (hell, any boundaries) was Triss Merigold, with Princess Adda coming a distant second. One of my predictions was that Gestahl “will consistently fail to engage with women as actual human beings who might freely choose to fuck him because he’s desirable” and this has turned out to be largely unfair, either to him or his ladyfriends.
It's definitely worth reading the final post, for any who haven't yet.



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UniversalWolf: Actually it's entirely germane, because it's clear that the portrayal of women in the game is in no way out of line with the way human beings and human-like creatures as a whole are portrayed in the game. Selectively isolating the portrayal of women for criticism is ridiculous, just as isolating the portrayal or men for criticism would be ridiculous. They're both part of a single milieu.
I disagree; I think it's entirely possible and worthwhile to separate the two. More on why below.

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UniversalWolf: I don't think it is a problem at all, but if it is why is it any more problematic for women than it is for men?

I don't believe a game like The Witcher causes anyone to believe anything about anyone, and if it did the most likely outcome would be to create a sense of self-loathing in human beings. But really, the game is inherently an un-reality and that's largely the point of its existence. It's a nasty world full of nasty people and things: a world where violence and mayhem on the part of the player are justifiable.
I wish this were true. Unfortunately, psychology studies have repeatedly shown that depictions of characters in the media, and specifically depictions along gender lines and depictions relating to sex and sexual behavior, very much do make people believe things about other people. Here are some example studies:

http://news.stanford.edu/news/2013/october/virtual-female-avatars-100913.html
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs11199-009-9695-4
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022103108001005
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ejsp.755/abstract

Notably, some of these studies found effects on both men and women. So why focus on women so much? The reason is complicated. A lot of it is cultural. For example, in The Witcher, as you pointed out, there are lots of women who use sex for personal gain but there are also men who are murderers and drunks. But these two stereotypes are not viewed as equally bad, at least in Western culture. There's a lot of popular music (especially hip hop) that glorifies violence, drinking and drug use while deriding sexual promiscuity in women. It's also common for people to blame rape victims rather than rape perpetrators.

Now, The Witcher is a Polish game, and it's possible that in Poland people do not hold these same prejudices, but I doubt it. And while The Witcher is certainly not the worst example in gaming, it does contain a lot of these stereotypes, which feed back into cultural prejudices. These stereotypes and prejudices tend to be more damaging to women than to men.
I prefer the witcher 1 combat over witcher 2's combat. Witcher 1 feels more strategic.
+1

for Witcher 1 over Witcher 2.

Most characters were a lot more credible in the first game. Not to mention the by far superior storyline.

Giving Geralt a vast jawbone isn't any improvement for me, neither is an overload of shaders nor are similar "character extensions"...

And while he really maybe looked a tiny bit to soft in the first game, the "russion bouncer thug"-W2-Geralt isn't even near any image the books create... at least for me.
But I only know 3 of em so far... maybe I just accidentially skipped all the books regarding that...
I like somethings more about the first game for sure. I think the soundtrack is no doubt way better. Its so beautiful.
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Trank209: I like somethings more about the first game for sure. I think the soundtrack is no doubt way better. Its so beautiful.
Absolutely! The whole game design felt more skillfully "composed", less overdone.
Witcher 1 was more of an RPG, rather than a hack and slash action, with console button-sequences thrown in. Alchemy and pot drinking were more player friendly. And complex. And fun. Among other things.
I like the 1 more.
I have to say that I initially really struggled to get through the first act of The Witcher 2. It wasn't what I was expecting at all after what came before in The Witcher 1. It took me several attempts to get through it. Artistically it's a masterpiece, but from a story telling point of view it was a let down up until about half way through the game. The second half is great, but then very unexpectedly it's over.

Style over substance comes to mind.
Post edited March 08, 2015 by acurisur
The composition in the first one is just better weighted, imho, and comes closer to the books.
This isn't even changed through book related story aspects, like the increased politcal aspects in the sequel.
Post edited May 19, 2015 by seelenernter