Sort of feeling like replaying Bard's Tale 2 again, with a fresh party (not imported from 1), but I can't decide on which version.

I have narrowed it down to 2 candidates:
MS-DOS
Apple 2GS

So, of these 2 versions, which should I play.

As for the trade-offs:
* 2gs version is less buggy (DOS version bugs are annoying, but are manageable, unlike the bugs in DOS BT3)
* 2gs version has an automap
* DOS version has better load times, especially when first starting the game (2gs version says it may take several minutes to awaken the monsters, but emulator features can mitigate this)
* XP requirements differ at high levels; in the DOS version, advanced casters need tons of XP past level 13, making it a reasonable option to just leave a caster as a conjurer or magician (+ note the Dreamspell exists)
* It's easier to hex edit the DOS version, as each character is a separate file, and I am not aware of a tool to access the 2GS version's filesystem under Linux (this is useful if, say, I want to work around the hunter critical overflow bug in the DOS version)
* Dreamspell is easier to get in 2gs, where you just need 7th level Sorcerer spells and the code; in the DOS version, you actually need to step on the Dreamspell square (the one that tells you the code) or the spell will fizzle if you try to cast it

So, which version would you suggest?

(Note that I am not interested in giving the remaster another go at this point; someday I may try the remaster with a fresh party, but now is not the time.)

I think the higher XP requirements at high levels and the need to actually find the Dreamspell in the DOS version are good/positive features. So the only negatives would be: no automap & more buggy.

If the bugs don't bother you too much (which, based on your previous posts, I think is the case) then it would really boil down to the automapper. So, in summary I think if you really want that automapper then play 2GS, otherwise play DOS.

(I've never played the 2GS version personally, so I don't know how good/useful the automapper is.)

The XP requirements at high levels, it's worth noting, don't affect all classes evenly; most non-casters aren't affected at all, while advanced casters are affected more (Archmages need 4 million XP per level past 13). Basically the way it works (for levels past 13, which is where the difference is) is as follows:
* DOS: Every level past 13 requires as much XP as it took to reach level 13 in the first place (200k for most non-casters, 230k for Monk, Rogue, Conjurer, and Magician, 400k for Sorcerer, 1.3M for Wizard, and 4M for Archmage).
* Apple 2GS: Every level past 13 requires 200k XP, regardless of class.
* Bard's Tale 3 (all versions, including DOS, excluding remaster without Legacy XP): Each level past 13 requires 400k XP. This means that reaching level 14 requires triple the XP of level 13 for some classes. (Note that, after the first major boss, your party is raised to level 35.)
* Remaster without Legacy XP: 100k per level past 13 until level 35, then I believe it increases to 200k, and again to 300k at level 50.
* Remaster with Legacy XP: Follows DOS for BT1, Apple 2GS for BT2, and 400k/level past 13 for BT3. (Yes, it differs between games even without Chapter differences.)

One implication of this difference is that, in the DOS version, it makes sense to have only one Archmage and have ecery other longterm character end as a Conjurer or Magician (the Dreamspell allows them to be useful despite not having Archmage spells). In the Apple 2gs version, you can make everybody Archmages, and those who don't become one are best left as Sorcerers or Wizards (more HP growth, and Wizards have the same equipment options that Archmages get).

The automap, meanwhile, works just like Bard's Tale 3's automap, but with the colors inverted.

Also, one random difference: The Apple 2gs version lets you save in death snares, while the DOS version does not. (By the way, one of the bugs in the DOS version is that, after clearing the final snare, the game still thinks you're in a death snare; APAR to a town's Adventurer's Guild fixes this.)

I'm thinking of the DOS version at this point.

That's not a bug, that's a feature (IMHO)! Spellcasters get extra levels if they switch class, so I think it makes sense to balance that out with greater XP requirements. That sounds to me like a limitation or unintentional effect rather than an intentional change? The whole point behind death snares is that you can't save, that's what makes them so annoying :).

I never said it was a bug, but it is a difference between versions, and it's even a *strategically significant* difference, in that it affects what the optimal strategies are. Also, note that this only applies past level 13; in 2GS BT2 an Archmage still needs 4 million XP to reach level 13. (Level 14 needs 4.2M in 2GS but 8M in DOS.)

One other thing that may be a bug, and which is another difference:
* In the DOS version (applies to all 3 games, though exploiting it in BT3 is impossible because of another bug), if you are level drained, or if you have your level restored at the temple, your XP will be set to the minimum amount for the level above your new level. For example, in BT2 a level 13 Archmage who's drained to level 12 will have 4 million XP (instead of 3M), and on having the level restored will have 8 million, allowing them to level up to level 14. (Incidentally, exploiting this with an Archmage in BT2 and then transferring to BT3 can allow the character to reach 3-digit levels in a reasonable amount of time.) (Note that the remaster completely changed the way level draining works.) Well, in other versions you can't save in death snares because you can't save anywhere except by dismissing party members in the Adventurer's Guild.

Hence, this difference is probably due to the programmers making different decisions about whether saving is against the spirit of the death snares, or perhaps the 2GS version has a bug (one would need to disassemble the code to check, and I don't think this is worth doing just for this).

By the way, even "save anywhere except in a death snare" is enough to trivialize the death snare in Fanskar's Castle.

Agreed. (I just wanted to use the "It's not a bug, it's a feature!" quote.) I'd say that's definitely unintentional. I don't think it's a bug, I think they just wanted to add saves and it didn't bother them that saves are then are useable in death snares.


I do think the DOS XP progression is superior in concept, even though it gets a bit silly for Wizard and Archmage, and you can game the system but not ending your progression on Wizard. The devs must have thought so too, because they changed it for BT3 (and to double what it was on 2GS for BT2, so they must have thought that was too low).

By the way, a couple reasons to reject some other classic versions:
* Commodore 64: Monster party members will not use their spells or breath attacks unless there are no enemies present to use them on. They'll happily use them when there are no enemies, however. (The Apple 2GS version is the reverse; they'll only use their spells and breath attacks if there are enemies to use them on.) (I have personally observed this, after I was able to port my characters from the Apple 2GS version over (for transfer to Bard's Tale 3)).
* Amiga: From what I've read, Bards get extra attacks as they level up, but Warriors do not. (This makes Warriors useless in this version.)

By the way, the save representation is the same between the Apple 2GS and Commodore 64 versions, except that the C64 saves are encrypted to make them harder to hex edit. (I bypassed this by using an emulator save state and copying the character from 2GS disk to C64 save state directly, then saving the characters from within the game.) BT1 uses the same save format, so you can copy characters between them without transferring, though some items will change, and copying an Archmage, Monster, or Illusion to BT1 can have strange results (glitch classes!).

The DOS version uses a different save format, and it's different between BT1 and BT2. One observation is that, in BT1 DOS, level is 2 bytes, but in BT2 DOS it's only one, so you can't level up past level 255 without it wrapping around to 0. I think the hunter's critical rate and the rogue's thief skills may have been similarly shrunk in size, and they forgot to put an overflow check in BT2 DOS, resulting in the critical rate overflow glitch I mentioned earlier. (Good thing it's easy to fix it with a hex editor!)

BT3's save format is different from that of previous versions, but is the same between BT3 versions (excluding the remaster). The C64 version's saves aren't even encrypted! (One thing to note, however, is that the high bit is set on each character of each character's name in the C64 version, but clear in the DOS version.)

Maybe I should mention a couple other differences I am aware of:
* In the DOS version, you must equip an item in order to use it as an item; the Apple 2GS version has no such requirement. (In the Remaster, there is a Legacy Mode option that determines whether items need to be equipped to be used.)
* Antimagic works differently:
* * In the DOS version, you can cast spells by using items, and they will work. Also, monster party members can successfully cast their spells. Neither will work in the Apple 2GS version (the spell will fizzle).
* * In the DOS version, all ranged attacks of enemies will fizzle (yes, this means that spear the enemy tried to throw at you just fizzled; does that make sense?); this does not happen in the Apple 2GS version.
* For whatever reason, items that cast breath attacks are weaker in the DOS version, excluding the Cold Horn (IIRC, but it's rather weak anyway) and The Scepter (which you only get at the end of the game). As a result, Bards are less useful offensively in DOS, and in the Gray Crypt, casters will want to use the Masterwand to attack rather than the Dragonwand (which is what you'd use in the 2GS version).