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System Shock seriesRespawning enemies are 100%, absolutely ruining the experience for me...(104 posts)(104 posts)
(104 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted February 17, 2013
I ask that this thread be locked after OP gives us a chance to share his experience.
I believe the initial debate of mod vs no mod on this thread has not only been beaten into glue,
but has been dissolved with solvent, reconstituted, and made into glue again.
Posted May 18, 2013
I really like the game, the atmosphere and the intensity - the mix of FPS and RPG-ish elements is great - but the respawning is not for me.

It doesn't add any tension, I can dispatch the spawns easily enough, rather it comes off like grinding to me. A timesink. Not the least since I know the game well, I know where the respawn points are (more or less) so it doesn't even add a *boo* moment. Just annoying grind.

"Oh Lord, I'm going back to engineering, great... aaand here's one (bash) aaand here's another (bam!) etc.

Respawning is beneath a game of this quality, it retains all its atmosphere, mystery and challenge without it. At least for me.
Posted May 18, 2013
It's only a grind if you have to kill them. So don't.

And if you've played the game so much that you have the spawn points memorized, of course it won't surprise you any more.

Yeesh.
Posted May 18, 2013
I can not imagine this game working if it was possible to completely kill every monster on the ship (as in it being possible to clear out sections of the ship and make them completely free of enemies, ie no respawns). Games often have this issue with whole populations getting enslaved or zombified by inefficient or easy to kill enemies. Makes you wonder why you need an army when all it takes is one man with a dinky pistol to methodically slaughter everything and save the day.

To me System Shock 2 makes the situation seem plausible. Most crew probably would die (or worse) because at the very least the hybrids are dangerous enough to unarmed and insufficiently trained humans. Those things wander around the ship killing anyone who hasn't been absorbed into The Many yet. It's not like the entire security detail and crew has been outsmarted and overrun by anklebiting comic relief aliens.

For all of the game you are alone in a dangerous place with not enough ammunition and time to save the day by fighting and killing every last robot and mutant. Respawning at invisible spawn points is not an elegant solution, but certainly necessary. The sense of achievement and progress does not come from clearing out an area, but from solving problems and reaching new areas. Respawning enemies, whether an alarm is triggered or not, is there to reinforce thei consequences of your other game play decisions like character build and resource expenditure (Go through too much ammunition, hypos and nanites and the respawning enemies are there to force your hand). The core gameplay would become trivial without the challange (however minor) and resource sink that respawning enemies bring.

Many other games suffer from poor use of respawning enemies. I remember Far Cry 2 being largely a chore of time consuming gun battles but it also robbed you of the sense of impact you were having on the world. If you singlehandedly took out a handful of militia men guarding a check point you'd think it would be kind of a big deal, but instead you find it casually cleaned up and staffed again as if nothing had happened some five or ten minutes later.
Posted May 21, 2013
low rated
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ZylonBane: It's only a grind if you have to kill them. So don't.

And if you've played the game so much that you have the spawn points memorized, of course it won't surprise you any more.

Yeesh.
No, you're wrong, it's a grind. It's dumb, it's boring and ironically it makes the game easier, since one can use it as an exploit to gain infinite nanites. Through grinding respawns, one never ever has to worry about running out of ammo or health.

Regardless, your reply has to be the most useless and dumb one I've seen - but then I started to notice more of your replies in SS2 threads and wowee you're one butthurt fanboi.

I'll keep killing those respawns, if they get in my way - I'll play the game in any which way I darn well please boy.
Posted May 22, 2013
low rated
Now that was a funny tantrum. Well done.
Posted May 23, 2013
low rated
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ZylonBane: Now that was a funny tantrum. Well done.
Your suggestion was dumb on an epic scale. Glue-sniffingly dumb.

Boy.
Posted May 28, 2013
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ZylonBane: It's only a grind if you have to kill them. So don't.

And if you've played the game so much that you have the spawn points memorized, of course it won't surprise you any more.

Yeesh.
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Atlantico: No, you're wrong, it's a grind. It's dumb, it's boring and ironically it makes the game easier, since one can use it as an exploit to gain infinite nanites. Through grinding respawns, one never ever has to worry about running out of ammo or health.

Regardless, your reply has to be the most useless and dumb one I've seen - but then I started to notice more of your replies in SS2 threads and wowee you're one butthurt fanboi.

I'll keep killing those respawns, if they get in my way - I'll play the game in any which way I darn well please boy.
It's not an exploit, dingus. It's part of the game. It's atmospheric and keeps you on your toes. Also, it gives you a way to farm ammo and currency-- but your assertion that it is "game breaking" (lol) is a huge, trollish exaggeration. You would have to travel back and forth through an area for days-- DAYS-- to gather enough resources to feel remotely overpowered. It is incredibly well balanced.

It is also completely necessary-- there is a twist late in the game that requires you to purchase a special item from a vending machine. If you don't happen to have any cash, what on earth are you going to do? Well, you'd probably just cheat and break the game instead of appreciating it for what it is and playing by it's rules-- you know, "challenge", the point of gaming. But someone who can understand the game's simple ecology would know it's time to go hunt some Hybrids for money.

Since you're generally not forced to kill them I am going to assume you just suck at the game and have chosen to take your rage out on what is essentially a non-issue. I have been playing this game for years and years, following the community, and it wasn't until I came to the GoG forums that I ever heard someone complain about the respawning enemies. That is how I know it's not a real problem. Newer gamers dumbed down by hand-holding modern games are the problem.
Posted May 28, 2013
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Atlantico: No, you're wrong, it's a grind. It's dumb, it's boring and ironically it makes the game easier, since one can use it as an exploit to gain infinite nanites. Through grinding respawns, one never ever has to worry about running out of ammo or health.

Regardless, your reply has to be the most useless and dumb one I've seen - but then I started to notice more of your replies in SS2 threads and wowee you're one butthurt fanboi.

I'll keep killing those respawns, if they get in my way - I'll play the game in any which way I darn well please boy.
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Westenra: It's not an exploit, dingus. It's part of the game. It's atmospheric and keeps you on your toes. Also, it gives you a way to farm ammo and currency-- but your assertion that it is "game breaking" (lol) is a huge, trollish exaggeration. You would have to travel back and forth through an area for days-- DAYS-- to gather enough resources to feel remotely overpowered. It is incredibly well balanced.

It is also completely necessary-- there is a twist late in the game that requires you to purchase a special item from a vending machine. If you don't happen to have any cash, what on earth are you going to do? Well, you'd probably just cheat and break the game instead of appreciating it for what it is and playing by it's rules-- you know, "challenge", the point of gaming. But someone who can understand the game's simple ecology would know it's time to go hunt some Hybrids for money.

Since you're generally not forced to kill them I am going to assume you just suck at the game and have chosen to take your rage out on what is essentially a non-issue. I have been playing this game for years and years, following the community, and it wasn't until I came to the GoG forums that I ever heard someone complain about the respawning enemies. That is how I know it's not a real problem. Newer gamers dumbed down by hand-holding modern games are the problem.
No doofus, it's an exploit. Infinite ammo in a survival horror game. Exploit and damn it makes the game far less challenging.

Farming or grinding ammo is boring. In fact all grinding is by definition boring and a cheap way to add "content", though obviously it isn't content. It's spam.

As for the nanites you need for the vending machine, use a recycler. Part of the game. Grinding shouldn't be and isn't for me. But go ahead, exploit the dumb design of respawning.

In fact, I'd be hard pressed to name any game where respawning is anything but an annoyance. At least in a game that's supposed to end, that's supposed to have a story and set in a game world. Respawning just reminds me of friggin' MMOs. Which is a sad comparison for such a good game as SS2.

As for rage, boy you seem all up in arms about an opinion - like that waste-of-space ZylonBane. It's a game. Not a lifestyle choice. Get over it and stop whining that other people don't share your fringe opinion.

SS2 is a game that becomes even better with respawning turned off - it was good before - but it becomes more challenging with respawning off. And as for killing the respawns, well one can do it or skip it, I usually kill them because it is profitable. I hoard ammo and nanites by killing the buggers.

You seem to be under the impression that killing them costs me and makes the game "harder" somehow - on the contrary, it makes it easier - like all exploits do.
Posted May 29, 2013
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Westenra: It's not an exploit, dingus. It's part of the game. It's atmospheric and keeps you on your toes. Also, it gives you a way to farm ammo and currency-- but your assertion that it is "game breaking" (lol) is a huge, trollish exaggeration. You would have to travel back and forth through an area for days-- DAYS-- to gather enough resources to feel remotely overpowered. It is incredibly well balanced.

It is also completely necessary-- there is a twist late in the game that requires you to purchase a special item from a vending machine. If you don't happen to have any cash, what on earth are you going to do? Well, you'd probably just cheat and break the game instead of appreciating it for what it is and playing by it's rules-- you know, "challenge", the point of gaming. But someone who can understand the game's simple ecology would know it's time to go hunt some Hybrids for money.

Since you're generally not forced to kill them I am going to assume you just suck at the game and have chosen to take your rage out on what is essentially a non-issue. I have been playing this game for years and years, following the community, and it wasn't until I came to the GoG forums that I ever heard someone complain about the respawning enemies. That is how I know it's not a real problem. Newer gamers dumbed down by hand-holding modern games are the problem.
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Atlantico: No doofus, it's an exploit. Infinite ammo in a survival horror game. Exploit and damn it makes the game far less challenging.

Farming or grinding ammo is boring. In fact all grinding is by definition boring and a cheap way to add "content", though obviously it isn't content. It's spam.

As for the nanites you need for the vending machine, use a recycler. Part of the game. Grinding shouldn't be and isn't for me. But go ahead, exploit the dumb design of respawning.

In fact, I'd be hard pressed to name any game where respawning is anything but an annoyance. At least in a game that's supposed to end, that's supposed to have a story and set in a game world. Respawning just reminds me of friggin' MMOs. Which is a sad comparison for such a good game as SS2.

As for rage, boy you seem all up in arms about an opinion - like that waste-of-space ZylonBane. It's a game. Not a lifestyle choice. Get over it and stop whining that other people don't share your fringe opinion.

SS2 is a game that becomes even better with respawning turned off - it was good before - but it becomes more challenging with respawning off. And as for killing the respawns, well one can do it or skip it, I usually kill them because it is profitable. I hoard ammo and nanites by killing the buggers.

You seem to be under the impression that killing them costs me and makes the game "harder" somehow - on the contrary, it makes it easier - like all exploits do.
I'm sorry, but as others and myself have repeatedly pointed out, you are simply wrong. It takes more ammo and effort to take down an enemy than what you will find on their body. The risk outweights the reward. Therefore, there is absolutely NO similarity to farming, or grinding, or whatever it is you are complaining about, unless you go far out of your way to perceive it that way. It is simply a feature to make the gameworld feel dynamic and lived in and keep you guessing-- which is awesome. Stop trying to sound like a big man-- when you turn off respawning you take away the challenge and you know it. The respawning is so marginal it hardly ever happens. Sometimes there are a few new enemies in an area you already cleared-- big deal. If it's too scary for you, go play the million other FPS's whose creators lacked the foresight to add a feature as cool as RARELY OCCASSIONALLY RESPAWNING ENEMIES. You are taking something minuscule and blowing it way out of proportion in an attempt to validate your own opinion and stay relevant. Enjoy your custom hacked easy version of SS2. I look forward to your next temper tantrum.
Posted May 29, 2013
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Westenra: I'm sorry, but as others and myself have repeatedly pointed out, you are simply wrong. It takes more ammo and effort to take down an enemy than what you will find on their body. The risk outweights the reward. T
No, not really, it's very easy to beat MOBs to a pulp using no ammo at all. The risk is just about zero - perhaps you're just bad at playing the game?

I find it quite amusing that some people continue to maintain that this game is "hard" or "risky" or even remotely challenging. It is not. Perhaps for you, but it seems like some people are trying to prop up some myth about this game - that it is about choices (it is not) or that it is about survival (with infinite ammo it most certainly is not).

I went into the Rickenbacker with more ammo than Rambo, seeing as the MOBs (an MMO term quite applicable in SS2 unfortunately) respawn so helpfully. See a shotgun MOB? Just walk up to him and beat him to pulp - he won't even shoot at close range.

I find this game too easy, the respawns make it way too easy - but worse, they make it a chore. A grind - something best kept for braindead MMOs.
Posted June 23, 2013
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Sabin_Stargem: STEP 1 - Go to your base System Shock 2 folder.
STEP 2 - Create a text file, and rename it "user.cfg" without the quotes. Be sure to change the extension.
STEP 3 - Open the file, and add the following line: "no_spawn", without quotes.
STEP 4 - Save the file, and play the game.
Thanks. I'm in the cargo bay area and respawn rate is insane. I literally can't even finish listening to an audio log file without a new enemy appearing.
EDIT: I will think of another in-game way first before using it.
Post edited June 23, 2013 by Mivas
Posted June 23, 2013
back to the wall, guy, back to the wall.
Posted June 26, 2013
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Sabin_Stargem: STEP 1 - Go to your base System Shock 2 folder.
STEP 2 - Create a text file, and rename it "user.cfg" without the quotes. Be sure to change the extension.
STEP 3 - Open the file, and add the following line: "no_spawn", without quotes.
STEP 4 - Save the file, and play the game.
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Mivas: Thanks. I'm in the cargo bay area and respawn rate is insane. I literally can't even finish listening to an audio log file without a new enemy appearing.
EDIT: I will think of another in-game way first before using it.
Yaknow, I've beaten this game several times with friends on impossible mode (with the mod to make it available for multiplayer), and I honestly can't think of a more effective way of ruining the game. If you aren't playing the game with friends then you should message somebody on this forum to start a campaign, because I think as a team you would probably find the respawns far less annoying.
Posted September 22, 2013
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Atlantico: I really like the game, the atmosphere and the intensity - the mix of FPS and RPG-ish elements is great - but the respawning is not for me.

It doesn't add any tension, I can dispatch the spawns easily enough, rather it comes off like grinding to me. A timesink. Not the least since I know the game well, I know where the respawn points are (more or less) so it doesn't even add a *boo* moment. Just annoying grind.

"Oh Lord, I'm going back to engineering, great... aaand here's one (bash) aaand here's another (bam!) etc.

Respawning is beneath a game of this quality, it retains all its atmosphere, mystery and challenge without it. At least for me.
Nicely quoted, I was close to formulate it but not yet when I read your post.

I'd complete it with some points:

This bad mechanism can reward bad playing. I saw two video of very bad players, I mean very bad RPG players. Just watch 1st level:
- First video was from a kickass action game god, he just rushed through the level, skipped half of it and get NO RESPAWN, NO TIME PRESSURE.
- Second video was a true let's play, the guy got many troubles (quite like I did) get lost multiple time (like I did) but wasn't reading anything or almost, and wasn't searching anything. So he wins a lot of time and get NO RESPAWN and NO TIME PRESSURE.

It's a deep error to think the respawn is an independent design element, I quoted all that defend it do the error:
- It's linked to the cheap resurrect which itself lead to many bad design decisons.
- It pushes the game design into close combat focus which is a weak element of the game.
- It destroys the health management.
- It destroys most of the ammo management.
- It makes the game barely compatible with players without a very good understanding of English because time lost to read and re read isn't managed by the game.

Moreover and I don't think it's only because the game became outdated, the horror mood is a total failure if not ridiculous, at least in first level. No way the respawn helps reinforce it.

The respawn is just too basic and naive and like Atlantico quoted it nicely, it degenerate into stupid boring grinding.

The time pressure is just a wrong design approach for RPG design which involves a slower pace to be able to read stuff, search stuff, get lost few time, get time to think about character design, and more.

I think players for which it works either plays fast enough to skip almost entirely this point, either like grinding, either succeed auto hypnotize themselves because "it's a great classic so any design element are great".

BUT THAT POST IS JUST FROM PLAYING THE FIRST LEVEL, not the entire game.
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This is my favourite topic
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System Shock seriesRespawning enemies are 100%, absolutely ruining the experience for me...(104 posts)(104 posts)
(104 posts)