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Atlantico: I really like the game, the atmosphere and the intensity - the mix of FPS and RPG-ish elements is great - but the respawning is not for me.

It doesn't add any tension, I can dispatch the spawns easily enough, rather it comes off like grinding to me. A timesink. Not the least since I know the game well, I know where the respawn points are (more or less) so it doesn't even add a *boo* moment. Just annoying grind.

"Oh Lord, I'm going back to engineering, great... aaand here's one (bash) aaand here's another (bam!) etc.

Respawning is beneath a game of this quality, it retains all its atmosphere, mystery and challenge without it. At least for me.
Senestoj: Nicely quoted, I was close to formulate it but not yet when I read your post.

I'd complete it with some points:

This bad mechanism can reward bad playing. I saw two video of very bad players, I mean very bad RPG players. Just watch 1st level:
- First video was from a kickass action game god, he just rushed through the level, skipped half of it and get NO RESPAWN, NO TIME PRESSURE.
- Second video was a true let's play, the guy got many troubles (quite like I did) get lost multiple time (like I did) but wasn't reading anything or almost, and wasn't searching anything. So he wins a lot of time and get NO RESPAWN and NO TIME PRESSURE.

It's a deep error to think the respawn is an independent design element, I quoted all that defend it do the error:
- It's linked to the cheap resurrect which itself lead to many bad design decisons.
- It pushes the game design into close combat focus which is a weak element of the game.
- It destroys the health management.
- It destroys most of the ammo management.
- It makes the game barely compatible with players without a very good understanding of English because time lost to read and re read isn't managed by the game.

Moreover and I don't think it's only because the game became outdated, the horror mood is a total failure if not ridiculous, at least in first level. No way the respawn helps reinforce it.

The respawn is just too basic and naive and like Atlantico quoted it nicely, it degenerate into stupid boring grinding.

The time pressure is just a wrong design approach for RPG design which involves a slower pace to be able to read stuff, search stuff, get lost few time, get time to think about character design, and more.

I think players for which it works either plays fast enough to skip almost entirely this point, either like grinding, either succeed auto hypnotize themselves because "it's a great classic so any design element are great".

There are hardly any enemies in the first level, and certainly not enough respawning enemies to be a problem. Are you confusing the occasionally respawning enemies with the ones that spawn when you set off an alarm? If so, destroy the cameras before they go off, and if you set off an alarm, turn it off. Try not to trigger those alarms, Xerxes sends a bunch of enemies to you when you do. I watched one youtube video where someone was standing literally in front of the security camera and complaining at how many enemies kept coming at him.

The cheap resurrect can be a problem, when I played system shock 2 many many years ago co-op, my friend was fond of running at anything with his wrench and beating on them. It didn't work very well though, and he paid a cost in time. He even ran up to these giant robot mechs and beat on them for a tiny amount of damage before it killed him, he respawned and had to run all the way back. By the time he had killed one of them this way, I had cleared out a huge section in another bay by being smart and using appropriate weapons. I can't imagine the game would be fun if you die in such a way and have to keep running back to where you were, but if you're motivated enough I suppose it works.

The number of enemies that respawn in the game (without setting off an alarm) is spread apart so much and happens so rarely that you'll almost never run into a problem with them. Killing a zombie wandering around the engine corridors every 30-60 minutes, for the small chance at a tiny amount of pistol ammo or 5 credits is not worth the effort and certainly shouldn't impact the game in any major way.
Kahvi: Creepy Music + no visible enemy might just make it creepier...

Open the "Video Game" folder on that TV Tropes page and look up the entry about System Shock 2.
I used to hate the respawning enemies also, so my last playthrough I turned off respawning completely.
This time I forgot to do it, but now I really like it, it's an endless stream of ammo, junk, credits and food. I can convert the junk and food with the recycler, and the ammo is awesome. I have over 640 shotgun pellets and haven't bought any.

And all my nades have come from killing respawns with laser rapier. Loving this playthrough.

Although I still HATE the damn monkeys! No matter how good at melee I get I still get destroyed by them most of the time before I can hit them.
I have no idea how is this even possible without triggering the alarms, are you sure you haven't triggered one? I encountered this only fighting the brain of the many (endless rumblers), and on the way to Korenchkin (cyborg assasins and spiders were just coming and coming, before I got to tram). Either alarm or bug.
The Laser Rapier is a very underrated weapon, IMO. It's one of my favorites as well. It doesn't degrade, it uses no ammo, and as far as I know it's the only object in the game that can be used as a portable light source.

Apparently in the future no one remembers how to manufacture a proper flashlight.
At release a flashlight type object would likely have been ruinously bad on a min spec system, unfortunately. Dark Engine doesn't handle dynamic lights well at all, monsters cannot see them either- and there aren't that many places where one would be really useful.

Even the laser rapier glow was added later by modders. Some projectiles did have a glow in vanilla though, and a flashlight could certainly be modded in now.
Ahh...almost everything I like best about SS2 seems to have been modded in later.

I have to disagree about usefulness. I've used the glow from the Laser Rapier very frequently. I aways keep one handy.
Cynicide: The respawning enemies are part of the reason why System Shock 2 is considered a classic.

In conjunction with the music, story and atmosphere; the game mechanics create a place where the player never feels safe. System Shock 2 play sessions are supposed to be tense, you're supposed to sneak up behind that hybrid and club its head in with a wrench, hiding in a closet while you patch yourself up with stims and trying to remember where you closest medical table is.

It's not supposed to be an empowering experience, you're not supposed to clear out every level, you're supposed to feel scared and trapped. I finished the game in 1999 when it came out and I don't doubt that gamers can do the same today, people just need to think past the recent trend towards set-piece shooters and think about what Shock 2 is trying to do. It's not creating a pretty backdrop, it's trying to create a place.

Hack security stations, smash cameras and use AP ammo on bots and turrets.
TBH, I enjoyed the game a lot and I do not think that it was what made the game a classic. It was the only thing that annoyed me, as it would break immersion for me. I like things to be believable. If they are not, a production , a game or not, loses much of its appeal.
lubwak: I like things to be believable.
One guy being able to single-handedly clear out a gigantic starship of every one of its crew, who are actively wandering around looking for you, is the opposite of believable. You're just trying to rationalize your need to "clear the level".
lubwak: I like things to be believable.
ZylonBane: One guy being able to single-handedly clear out a gigantic starship of every one of its crew, who are actively wandering around looking for you, is the opposite of believable. You're just trying to rationalize your need to "clear the level".
Of course, but it is theoretically possible, given extraordinary strength/will of the character (who is, btw, cybernetically-enhanced). Enemies appearing out of thin air in a closed environment, in which the number of crew members possible to be transformed IS an immersion breaker is IS totally unbelievable. If I clear a corridor with a dead-end, and a monster appears behind me, it IS impossible, unless we assume the lore allows teleporting etc. It is all about the so-called "suspension of disbelief". There is a fine line there.
that is exactly why most corridors are not dead ends - respawns emulate monsters arriving from other parts of the level.
After 12,5 hours of in-game playtime I had 3 respawning enemies every 3 meters in front of or behind me. We are talking about spiders, zombie-women, exploding robots, star monkeys, cyber killers, ... All of them with bad or without loot. I had a long playtime, because I had orientation problems due to the awful maps. That was only the in-game playtime. I had constantly to reload because of endless deaths. I was constantly running out of ammo and health packs.I often didn't know what to do next or couldn't find specific points. I played on normal level of difficulty as a navy. It was impossible to go on. I couldn't reach the second space ship and I killed the game from the hard disk. What is the logic behind it?
as mentioned a couple of times before, normal spawning is very, very mild. however, alarm spawning is not - you are aware that once an alarm is triggered, an endless stream of AIs will come to bash your face in, right?

I once watched a LP where the player took four decks to figure this out - it was physically painful to observe.
Post edited October 07, 2019 by voodoo47
I started a new game.
At the first trial the game end in the room with the engines or gondolas where you have to give in a code.
The second trial it didn't appear in this area. In the second trial I had the same problem somewhere before in deck 4. I ran away followed by estimated twenty enemies which respawned after a few seconds out of nothing. This time I had enough space to flee through corridores. The whole game I carefully shot at any camera to avoid alarms. It wasn't the effect of an alarm. This could be a bug, but I felt that this was a bad programmed game decision.

My second trial end near the brain. I found out that 40 grenades weren't enough for the endless respawning enemies in this area. Again endless respawns!!!

The two times I played on normal level of difficulty. Three days again invested in intensive playing for nothing. In my point of view system shock 2 with it's program decisions is only a masterpiss and not a masterpiece. A programmed anus game with a sphincter, but not in a humorous way. It's a pity, because it has some nice elements like deus ex which is a much better game in nearly every regard. The positive side of system shock 2 is the soundtrack.
the brain area respawning is intentional, this is the big fight you (should) have been saving all you resources for.

I'm assuming the Ops part is the transfer Shodan to Rickenbacker quest - the Many will throw all they've got at you to stop you, but both ecologies are capped, and are set to not activate if the player has vision, so 20 enemies spawning right under your nose is impossible. post a save with those 20 AIs existing if you are serious about that, and I will have a look.
Post edited October 09, 2019 by voodoo47