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Star Wars™: X-Wing and TIE Fighter seriesGet dramatically better MIDI music!(63 posts)(63 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted November 01, 2014
Few things:

Regarding the Sound Canvas sounds put into Micorsoft Soft Synth and Quicktime Synth: They are from the Sound Canvas but they are a very low quality set from that device. A real sound canvas sounds noticeably better. And in the case of Microsoft Synth, has no reverb or any processing put on the sound. All it does is play the patch. At least apple's core audio synth puts reverb on it, but still is not great.

Both Apple's and Microsoft internal soft synth has not been changed since the mid 90's!

A modern midi synth, either a font or some real hardware, blows the internal synth out of the water!

For starters, patches can be a lot larger now, and possibly a higher quality sound in terms of bit rate. Though people still hang on to the 44.1 Hz standard.

Also Dosbox has no internal midi device and relays midi to whatever is on the system.

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Regarding MT-32. Yes, Lucasarts supports the mt-32 standard, including the first mt-32! They main difference between that and the CM-32L is a few added sound effects, that TieFighter, Xwing or any of the point and click games do not use. As for the LAPC-I it was just a CM-32L on an internal card.
Post edited November 01, 2014 by herecomethe2000
Posted November 01, 2014
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herecomethe2000: I would not use mt-32 emulation. It is very, very old. Any modern GM midi synth sounds better. It's best for games that support nothing else, unless you are talking Sierra point and clicks which made extensive use of the mt32s custom sound feature

To get the best MIDI GM sound, find a way to use .sf2 soundfonts on your system. There are a few options. Bassmidi, Virtual Midi Synth as mention above, fluidsynth for unix people.

As to the best .sf2 soundfont currently either Arachno.sf2 or my current favorite, Timbres of Heaven 2.0.2

http://midkar.com/soundfonts/ (300 or so megs uncompressed which is a good balance between usable and unwieldy large)

TOH supports GM (general Midi), GS (Roland Sound Canvas's General Sound Extenstion), and Yamaha XG Extension. (not that X-wing or Tie Fighter use those extensions to GM)

There will be a 2.0.3 comming out soon, and from what I have seen from the private betas, it will blast 2.0.2 out of the water :)
Thanks for the recommendation, I finally had a chance to try it. Timbres of Heaven is my new favorite SoundFont. I just had to dial down the music volume in the game options a tad to balance it with the Voice/SFX. It's beautiful!
Posted November 01, 2014
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herecomethe2000: Regarding MT-32. Yes, Lucasarts supports the mt-32 standard, including the first mt-32! They main difference between that and the CM-32L is a few added sound effects, that TieFighter, Xwing or any of the point and click games do not use. As for the LAPC-I it was just a CM-32L on an internal card.
Not in this game. You will get an error on the LCD display and totally "off" sounds. Of course this is something people don't see with emulators. So I try to help out with testing this on real hardware.
Posted November 01, 2014
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herecomethe2000: Regarding MT-32. Yes, Lucasarts supports the mt-32 standard, including the first mt-32! They main difference between that and the CM-32L is a few added sound effects, that TieFighter, Xwing or any of the point and click games do not use. As for the LAPC-I it was just a CM-32L on an internal card.
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Mau1wurf1977: Not in this game. You will get an error on the LCD display and totally "off" sounds. Of course this is something people don't see with emulators. So I try to help out with testing this on real hardware.
Really? Should say "LucasArts Games" on the screen. (I admit this is with munt plugged into boxer as a framework library, but such displays were not for the CMT-32L's benefit which didn't have an LCD) I don't understand why it should sound "off" All the instruments are in the same channels, and xwing doesn't upload any additional sounds. The only additions the CMT-32L had are the extra banks for a few sound effects which aren't used. Very curious... Does your unit have the 1/4 inch headphone jack or not? Easy to identify if it was the newer model or not. Not that it should matter, but just wondering what your exact unit is.

If you don't mind me asking, how do you connect your unit to dosbox? I imagine a midi to usb cable?

As far as munt is concerned, mt-32 roms sound exactly the same as CMT-32L roms except in games like Falcon 3.0 which use the extra sound effects.
Post edited November 01, 2014 by herecomethe2000
Posted November 01, 2014
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hfm: Thanks for the recommendation, I finally had a chance to try it. Timbres of Heaven is my new favorite SoundFont. I just had to dial down the music volume in the game options a tad to balance it with the Voice/SFX. It's beautiful!
Yah, Don Allen actually normalized the individual patches, which is a step every one else seems to forget.

I'll let you know when 2.0.3 is finally out. The minor increment change in numbers don't reflect the amount of work he is clearly putting into it.
Post edited November 01, 2014 by herecomethe2000
Posted November 01, 2014
Probably should be noted

It's nowhere as good as modern soundfonts, but TieFigher supports Gravis Ultrasound Midi which can be emulated fully by dosbox. Just have to download the ULTRASND drivers yourself and put the folder in the path of your emulated C: drive. (check the dosbox conf for this)

set

gus=true
ultradir=C:\ULTRASND (emulated c drive, not your real one)

Then you should be able to select "Gravis Ultrasound" in the install sound setup.

It really was an amazing card at the time :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdZTiB4toco
Posted November 01, 2014
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herecomethe2000: Really? Should say "LucasArts Games" on the screen. (I admit this is with munt plugged into boxer as a framework library, but such displays were not for the CMT-32L's benefit which didn't have an LCD) I don't understand why it should sound "off"
I explain the issue in my MT-32 tutorial video: http://youtu.be/OLvsaJ4h-VY?t=2h10m57s

Not all games are affected, but some are and X-Wing is one of them. Emulators often avoid these issues but also hide what is really happening. To put it simply, back in the day, X-Wing would not have worked properly on a MT-32 (Old). The MT-32 (New), which is the late version with the headphone port at the back, seems to work fine, but that unit is quite rare and most have the MT-32 (Old).

It might just be easier to stick with General MIDI option for this game.

PS: The message is "Lucasfilm Games"
Post edited November 01, 2014 by Mau1wurf1977
Posted November 01, 2014
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herecomethe2000: Really? Should say "LucasArts Games" on the screen. (I admit this is with munt plugged into boxer as a framework library, but such displays were not for the CMT-32L's benefit which didn't have an LCD) I don't understand why it should sound "off"
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Mau1wurf1977: I explain the issue in my MT-32 tutorial video: http://youtu.be/OLvsaJ4h-VY?t=2h10m57s

Not all games are affected, but some are and X-Wing is one of them. Emulators often avoid these issues but also hide what is really happening. To put it simply, back in the day, X-Wing would not have worked properly on a MT-32 (Old). The MT-32 (New), which is the late version with the headphone port at the back, seems to work fine, but that unit is quite rare and most have the MT-32 (Old).

It might just be easier to stick with General MIDI option for this game.

PS: The message is "Lucasfilm Games"
Interesting... Surely a program can be made to slow down the midi output for the Old model. you mention a dosbox patch that does this? So even though the New models technically work, you said cmt-32l to keep it simple. i get it.

You're right, Lucasfilm.. :)
-------
mt-32 emu is about as difficult as any other option, but General Midi can be the higher quality solution.
Post edited November 01, 2014 by herecomethe2000
Posted November 01, 2014
Yes there is a chance that the CM-32L will use custom sounds, but I haven't played this game enough / know it enough to know this for sure. But I do know that Lucas always used a LAPC-I for composing / testing / developing. X-Wing is the first Lucas game however that I know that will throw a Buffer Overflow error on the MT-32 (Old).

In other games you get somewhat "simpler" sounds like in Monkey Island 2, but you still hear a correct sound if you have a MT-32 (Old).

There is now a program that can slow down MIDI transfer: SoftMPU. It's main goal however is enabling intelligent mode MPU to non-intelligent MPU interfaces like Sound Blaster.
Post edited November 01, 2014 by Mau1wurf1977
Posted November 01, 2014
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patricklibuda: What's wrong with the Roland Sound Canvas stuff provided free of charge and legally by Microsoft with DirectX
...
To cut a long story short, the sound quality of the Roland Sound Canvas stuff supplied by MS is really good (also in DOSBox), it works, it is free, and it is legal.
Despite its name (GS), I don't think it is fully the same soundfont as in e.g. real Roland SCC-1 and SC-55 units. It sounds quite a bit poorer than a real SCC-1 (or other more advanced General MIDI cards, Yamaha daughterboard etc.), or the more advanced soundfonts nowadays (Chorium Rev A, FluidR3 and all the others mentioned here...).

Plus, it doesn't seem to include nor support the extra Sound Canvas features that go beyond the basic General MIDI specifications, like extra drum sets, reverb/vibration effects and what is there. Some PC "General MIDI" games use those extra Sound Canvas features, e.g. many Origin games (Privateer, Ultima 8 etc.), Jurassic Park and some others.

Using BASSMIDI/Virtual MIDI Synth and a replacement soundfont, you get those extra features too, while with the basic Microsoft GS Wavetable Synth, you don't. E.g. when Privateer music uses the Sound Canvas drumset that sounds more like orchestral drums, or uses the vibration effect on the violins in the intro music (making it sound a bit like there's an army of violins playing, instead of just one), you will miss those with the basic Windows General MIDI softsynth. Plus, even with basic General MIDI music where no extra Sound Canvas features are used, the replacement soundfonts have vastly better sounding instruments over the default MS General MIDI softhsynth.

So yeah, you are right that the default Microsoft GS Wavetable Synth alone is enough to get General MIDI music in e.g. DOSBox games. But you can make that music much better, by installing BASSMIDI or VirtualMIDISynth, and a better replacement GM/Sound Canvas soundfont.
Post edited November 01, 2014 by timppu
Posted November 01, 2014
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timppu: Some PC "General MIDI" games use those extra Sound Canvas features, e.g. many Origin games (Privateer, Ultima 8 etc.), Jurassic Park and some others.
I have quite a bit of interest in this as Timbres of Heaven supports the GS extension, as well as Yamaha XG.

I fear many of the Origin games I have tried, including Privateer, do not support GS. Are you thinking of their RAP-10 support? That is not a GS device. So far games I know support GS

Doom I+II
Duke Nukem 3d
Stonekeep
Terra Nova - Strike Force
Ultima VI (don't own so haven't actually tried)

As for XG

Theme Hospital

Id love to hear of any others!

That said, there are plenty of GM games that sound fantastic with proper hardware or software.
Post edited November 01, 2014 by herecomethe2000
Posted November 01, 2014
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herecomethe2000: I fear many of the Origin games I have tried, including Privateer, do not support GS.
How come? In many of its tunes, in my opinion it is quite apparent they are e.g. using the additional GS drumkits, instead of the standard General MIDI drumkit. Also the extra GS controller events seem to be used quite often in Privateer (and some other Origin games).

Note that even if you don't find a specific "Sound Canvas" or "SCC-1" or "Roland GS" option in the game's sound setup, its General MIDI option may still support the extended GS features. On non-GS General MIDI cards, those extra features are simply omitted. So just because you see only the "General MIDI"-option in game sound setup, does not automatically mean it doesn't support the extended GS features, if your sound card has them.

I think Privateer is one such game. It doesn't have a separate sound setup option for Sound Canvas/GS, but its General MIDI option gives you also extended Roland GS features, if your MIDI device supports them. Otherwise, you'll get normal General MIDI.

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herecomethe2000: Are you thinking of their RAP-10 support?
No.

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herecomethe2000: So far games I know support GS

Doom I+II
Duke Nukem 3d
I don't think that is the case, at least they don't seem to use any extended GS features. They seem just normal General MIDI music. I know there is for some reason a separate "Sound Canvas" option in the sound setup of e.g. Doom, but to me it has always sounded 100% identical to the General MIDI option, using e.g. Roland SCC-1. Some kind of red herring, I don't know.

Not 100% sure of course (as I haven't inspected those games' MIDI files in detail), it might be Doom is using some GS features too, but if it is, then it seems to be hiding the fact quite well, as at least to me it sounds normal General MIDI and nothing more. The same basic General MIDI drum kit used in all music, no extra controller events used etc.

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herecomethe2000: Ultima VI (don't own so haven't actually tried)
I don't think Ultima 6 has any General MIDI nor GS support. It has some basic Roland MT-32 support. Even its successor, Ultima 7, doesn't yet support General MIDI nor GS, but it supports MT-32, and quite well too (one of the best sounding MT-32 games I know).

Ultima 8, on the other hand, supports General MIDI and GS, and very well too. It sounds just beautiful on Roland SCC-1 (or equivalents).

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herecomethe2000: That said, there are plenty of GM games that sound fantastic with proper hardware or software.
Yeah that's true. Usually the first thing I miss in vanilla General MIDI music are the extra drum kits, as at least on Roland SCC-1 the default drum kit sounds quite weak compared to many of the additional GS drum kits. That's the reason why e.g. the theme tune in X-Wing has so weak sounding drums with Roland SCC-1, while with e.g. Roland LAPC-1/CM-32L there's much more oomph in the drums.
Post edited November 01, 2014 by timppu
Posted November 01, 2014
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patricklibuda: Hi,

What's wrong with the Roland Sound Canvas stuff provided free of charge and legally by Microsoft with DirectX (under Win98 you can even install it as a software synthesizer via the hardware wizard!)? In my old P133 I still have a hardware version (SCD-7 general midi daughterboard on a Terratec Maestro 32/96 (general synth with a lot (!) of bass - sounded absolutely lovely (!) with Tie Fighter floppy and CD). The sound quality is good. Alright, I did play with the idea of getting myself an ISA to USB adapter for use with my current PC but these things cost a bleeding fortune (a couple of hundred US Dollars / Euro) and not even I am that(!) mad ;-).

To cut a long story short, the sound quality of the Roland Sound Canvas stuff supplied by MS is really good (also in DOSBox), it works, it is free, and it is legal.

The music of Tie Fighter sounds nearly as good as it did with my hardware version(s)!

(Some time ago, I did actually even contact Roland/Edirol in Germany and ask them if it were possible to purchase the MT-32 ROMs for a reasonable amount for use in older games with e.g. MUNT but the answer apparently given to Roland/Edirol Germany by Roland/Edirol Japan was 'no' - I had argued that it would be nice to keep MT-32 alive but apparently folks at Roland/Edirol in Japan did not quite share that opinion.)

Cheers
Patrick
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hfm: Don't knock the SoundFonts until you've tried them, it's a whole new world. I remember how fantastic games were back when I was using daughter boards on my SB AWE 32, It's been 20 years since I've bothered to try to look into this stuff, there's so many good quality GM sample banks these days, and it's not limited by RAM anymore. :)
Have tried a couple ;-) - SF2 sound font files for the X-Fi but some people had just nicked Roland / MS DLS stuff and turned into SF2 stuff. One thing I noticed that during the fencing sequences in Pirates Gold there was a sound of metal scraping against metal. My old hardware Roland SC-7 used to play it and so does the MS Sound Canvas stuff. However, the Sound Canvas SF2 sets I tried did not. (It is a shame that sound cards no longer come with these daughter board connectors - would love to keep using my SCB-7)
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herecomethe2000: I fear many of the Origin games I have tried, including Privateer, do not support GS.
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timppu: How come? In many of its tunes, in my opinion it is quite apparent they are e.g. using the additional GS drumkits, instead of the standard General MIDI drumkit. Also the extra GS controller events seem to be used quite often in Privateer (and some other Origin games).

Note that even if you don't find a specific "Sound Canvas" or "SCC-1" or "Roland GS" option in the game's sound setup, its General MIDI option may still support the extended GS features. On non-GS General MIDI cards, those extra features are simply omitted. So just because you see only the "General MIDI"-option in game sound setup, does not automatically mean it doesn't support the extended GS features, if your sound card has them.

I think Privateer is one such game. It doesn't have a separate sound setup option for Sound Canvas/GS, but its General MIDI option gives you also extended Roland GS features, if your MIDI device supports them. Otherwise, you'll get normal General MIDI.

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herecomethe2000: Are you thinking of their RAP-10 support?
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timppu: No.

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herecomethe2000: So far games I know support GS

Doom I+II
Duke Nukem 3d
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timppu: I don't think that is the case, at least they don't seem to use any extended GS features. They seem just normal General MIDI music. I know there is for some reason a separate "Sound Canvas" option in the sound setup of e.g. Doom, but to me it has always sounded 100% identical to the General MIDI option, using e.g. Roland SCC-1. Some kind of red herring, I don't know.

Not 100% sure of course (as I haven't inspected those games' MIDI files in detail), it might be Doom is using some GS features too, but if it is, then it seems to be hiding the fact quite well, as at least to me it sounds normal General MIDI and nothing more. The same basic General MIDI drum kit used in all music, no extra controller events used etc.

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herecomethe2000: Ultima VI (don't own so haven't actually tried)
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timppu: I don't think Ultima 6 has any General MIDI nor GS support. It has some basic Roland MT-32 support. Even its successor, Ultima 7, doesn't yet support General MIDI nor GS, but it supports MT-32, and quite well too (one of the best sounding MT-32 games I know).

Ultima 8, on the other hand, supports General MIDI and GS, and very well too. It sounds just beautiful on Roland SCC-1 (or equivalents).

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herecomethe2000: That said, there are plenty of GM games that sound fantastic with proper hardware or software.
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timppu: Yeah that's true. Usually the first thing I miss in vanilla General MIDI music are the extra drum kits, as at least on Roland SCC-1 the default drum kit sounds quite weak compared to many of the additional GS drum kits. That's the reason why e.g. the theme tune in X-Wing has so weak sounding drums with Roland SCC-1, while with e.g. Roland LAPC-1/CM-32L there's much more oomph in the drums on X-Wing music.
The Dream synthy (GS) on the Terratec Maestro 3296 had a lot of punch as well :-). The Tie Fighter music sound absolutely amazing. Have, however, never got round to testing the card with X-Wing. By that time I had already passed on X-Wing to a friend.
Post edited November 01, 2014 by patricklibuda
Posted November 01, 2014
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timppu: Note that even if you don't find a specific "Sound Canvas" or "SCC-1" or "Roland GS" option in the game's sound setup, its General MIDI option may still support the extended GS features.
Interesting, you could very well be right. Is there anyway to tell what patches are being used on your Sound Canvas?
Judging from my ears though, I don't hear any new drums or anything switching from the normal internal synth to the GS sound font. It just sounds more full from the better sound.

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timppu: I don't think that is the case, at least they don't seem to use any extended GS features. They seem just normal General MIDI music. I know there is for some reason a separate "Sound Canvas" option in the sound setup of e.g. Doom, but to me it has always sounded 100% identical to the General MIDI option, using e.g. Roland SCC-1. Some kind of red herring, I don't know.
All I know is I was told the music was written directly for the Sound Canvas, now this doesn't necessarily mean they used any GS patches. :) Probably didn't for compatibility and laziness. They were a very small team at the time

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timppu: Ultima 8, on the other hand, supports General MIDI and GS, and very well too. It sounds just beautiful on Roland SCC-1 (or equivalents).
Ah you are probably right. I should have looked it up to be sure.

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timppu: That's the reason why e.g. the theme tune in X-Wing has so weak sounding drums with Roland SCC-1, while with e.g. Roland LAPC-1/CM-32L there's much more oomph in the drums.
Maybe compared to SCC-1's GM banks, but compared to some of those modern sound fonts, MT-32 really shows its age. :)
Post edited November 01, 2014 by herecomethe2000
Posted November 05, 2014
Just wanted to say thanks for this thread. It finally inspired me to get my TIE Fighter DOS CD setup on my Linux install. Using fluidsynth to load the SoundFont and I needed to configure the correct midiport, from the default 65:0, in DOSBox config. Works great. I just need to try some of the other SoundFonts. If I could specify 65:0 for fluidsynth I wouldn't even need to change the DOSBox config.
Post edited November 05, 2014 by Gydion
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Star Wars™: X-Wing and TIE Fighter seriesGet dramatically better MIDI music!(63 posts)(63 posts)
(63 posts)