Hi. I'm a fairly experienced RPG player and a big fan of many of Bioware's older infinity engine games (as well as Mass Effect). I tried KOTOR 1 for the first time about 3 months ago and, although I thought it was good, I wasn't amazed by it. Given that experience, I am wondering if I will like other Bioware games from the same era that I haven't played yet, such as Jade Empire, KOTOR 2, Dragon Age Origins?

As far as KOTOR 1, it's not that I think it's a bad game, but for me it didn't live up to the hype. The graphics and sound are good and the combat and character development are strong. The main thing I was disappointed with was the lack of freedom given to the player in the early stages. The game seemed quite railroading through Taris and the Jedi academy on Dantooine and it seemed to take a long time (around 15-20 hours?) before the game opens up and lets the player travel to different planets. I also wasn't wowed by the plot, which seems a bit dull and predictable (at least up to where I played, a couple of planets after getting through the Jedi academy).

So, given that, will I like any of the games I mentioned above, from the same era at Bioware, or is it likely I will find them disappointing for similar reasons? In particular, I am curious as to how they compare with KOTOR 1 in terms of player freedom, openness and plot.

Note: I'd appreciate if people could try to avoid posting spoilers. I have heard there are some fairly big twists later on in KOTOR 1, but the game kind of lost my interest before I reached that point. Thanks in advance.

KOTOR2 has much better writing and the story seemed somewhat engaging for me, unlike KOTOR1. Unfortunately I don't know if it lasts because I never finished the game. Openness... to be honest, I don't know. At least the early game is totally linear, but I don't mind since it's at least somewhat well done, and character development feels much deeper. KOTOR1 by contrast, yes it does open up, but do I really care what order I go in to complete stupid boring disconnected errand boy quests? That's what that game is. Your space ship is just an elaborate episode/level select screen...

Thanks for your reply. Yes, the main quest line of KOTOR 1 seems to basically revolve around having to find a certain number of these star map things that are scattered around the galaxy. The only real freedom the player has seems to be deciding what order to go after them in. I looked at an online review for KOTOR 2 and it seems like the plot is deeper and more complex, but the game was somewhat rushed and it is buggy with quite a lot ot cut content.

Have you tried Jade Empire or Dragon Age Origins?

Nope :(

Thanks for your input! I'm getting the impression that DA:O is probably the one of those four I will like the most. It seems more modern and sounds like it has a cool story. The main things that put me off it are the very generic/cliche fantasy setting and I am also a bit put off by what you say about it turning very combat-heavy. I might give it a try at some point, but probably not a high priority for me.

You don't really say what you (dis)like in games, so it's hard to comment on how you'll view other games. All crpgs are railroady... that's the nature of crpgs. Plus, most people who rave about ANY game played it when a) they were likely kids/teens, with much less experience or discriminating tastes than adults, and b) the game was new and cutting edge, which doesn't count when talking about it decades later. I never listen to hype as my tastes aren't the same as "the crowd".

Kotor 1
K1 takes time letting you get more experienced (both the PC and you the player) before letting you "run free" to different planets. It gives you time to learn how combat works, how it works with companions, and then learn more stuff after the twist on dantooine. Trying to infer what you think from your posts, it may be that 80s/90s games are too slow paced in general for you. I think all games from this period take their time, letting you "feel" the game universe.

Kotor 2
People talk about how this is much deeper thank K1, but I found it far more annoying. You're saddled with a character who just nags you the whole game, telling you everything you do is wrong. She's supposed to be unhappy with the whole light side/dark side nature of the star wars universe... a position I completely agree with, as I find all good/evil settings to be stupid and banal. Unfortunately, she's doing it inside a good/evil game, so while others may have found her deep and insightful, waxing philosophical, I was just really irritated at having to listen to her constant complaints. To be clear, there are many who think her a TREMENDOUS character, "best ever", so take my opinion as clearly subjective.

If you think the start of K1 bad, the start of K2 has you spending countless hours on a station with almost nobody to talk to. VERY slow start, and a very long while before you can go planet hopping. Plus, even though you start as a jedi, you can't get a lightsaber until halfway through the game, which royally pissed me off. There's a huge fan mod that polishes much of the unfinished work, but I... just didn't like the game. Loved K1, hated K2.

Jade
I really wanted to like this as an rpg with an asian setting sounded fun. The setting itself is... nice, but I was majorly underwhelmed by the tiny, simplistic, console nature of the game. Very small areas, very simple characters, very simple dialog, even simple char development. The game gave a ton of martial arts forms to learn, but they're all pretty much the same. Story was decent, but all I could think the whole time was "console game, console game". Like Deus Ex 2, the tiny nature of each area dampened my enjoyment. I want huge areas like DE1 or Thief 1/2, not large-text one-line NPCs in a ten room "map". It was a very nice change of pace from medieval europe, but I have no interest in a 2nd play.

DAO
Very long game, good selection of companions, decent plot. Lot of good voice actors. It follows the model of "go to a handful of areas, each with their own self-contained problem, and finish them all to unlock the final area". I've enjoyed it and suppose I would recommend.

Mass Effect 1
Hated it. Hated it fairly early on, was offended, but forced myself to play it all, given all the "hype". Sorry I did, it was just a slogfest of annoying running around. Story was stupid, companions were bad, another console game. So bad that even though I have ME2 I plan to never play it.

VTM Bloodlines is my favorite rpg of all time, I highly recommend. You may enjoy Gothic 1/2. What I do to decide if I'll like a game is to watch a Let's Play of it. That gives me the best sense of how I'll like the story, mechanics, setting, combat, etc. LPs tell me more than trailers, guides or online posts from strangers. : )

HTH

Hi BlueMooner, thanks for your detailed reply. I find your advice very helpful. Some things in particular that I like in an RPG:

- Player freedom is something I value highly. As in, freedom to develop your character, as well as to go where you want/do what you want, at least to some extent. I like a game where you can go through it without seeing all the content, which for me adds replay value and the feeling that I've had a 'unique' experience.

- An interesting setting that has some originality/creativity. I.e. something that isn't set in a generic 'Lord of the Rings' clone-world. (I've just played so many of those games)

- Immersiveness. A game that has a good plot; good writing and dialogue. That draws you in and makes you feel a part of the game world, where your actions have consequences and make a difference.

My two all-time favorite CRPGs are Baldur's Gate 2 and Morrowind, although I'd say Fallout 1/2 are close behind. I know not every RPG is 'open-world', but I think they can vary quite a lot in terms of player freedom and 'railroading'. Fallout 1/2 are great examples of CRPGs that allow a lot of player freedom, with very little railroading, which I really appreciated. BG2 is linear in places, but there are large sections that are very open. Once you get out of Irenicus' dungeon, you are presented with at least 6-7 different quests that are each quite substantial and totally optional. Also, it caters very well for the different character classes with the stronghold concept. Ultima 7 is another great example of a CRPG that has a ton of player freedom. But, of course I know not every game is going to be BG2/U7 ... it's a very high bar to meet.

Regarding K1: again, it's not that I think it's a bad game. It is a good game and has a lot of strong points. However, I think I had expected too much given all the rave reviews I've seen. I was expecting there to be more freedom than there was and ended up feeling a bit disappointed. For example, Taris to me seemed very railroaded for such a large area. I had the impression there is really only one way you can get through it, by jumping through certain 'hoops' in a very specific order, with little scope for deviation or doing things differently. You can only go into the undercity when the game wants you to. Ditto with the Sith base. I have a droid that can supposedly hack open doors, except that particular door is for some reason immune to being hacked.

In the whole area I had the nagging feeling that 'this could have been done better'. They could have allowed the player to break into the sith base earlier, if they wanted to. They might then have gotten blown to bits by the guards inside because they're not ready for it, but then to me that gives realism and adds to the immersion. Why not make Davis' estate an area the player can go to and explore earlier on? Let the player try to break in there, steal a ship and leave Taris earlier if they want to, without doing the other quests. Ok, that maybe causes a problem, because they might not have rescued Bastila first. Well, in that case, arrange for her to escape Taris by other means and the player could then meet her later on at Dantooine. I don't think it would have been so hard to do.

And then the next area, Dantooine, I had issues with as well, the way the game railroads the player through the Jedi Academy. Ok ... but what if I didn't want to be a Jedi? There are other types of characters in the Star Wars setting that might also be fun to play - traders, bounty hunters, soldiers, smugglers. What if I wanted to go 'dark' from the get go and join the Sith academy instead, without going through the Jedi training? I saw so many possible interesting paths that were closed off.

I mean, the combat is good, character development is good, the plot is decent and there are some interesting characters/dialogue. But, imo all that initial railroading went on for far too long. Overall, I'd probably give it a 7/10.

Anyway, enough with my rant :-) . I think your advice on the other games pretty much reinforces my conclusion that DAO is probably the one out of that list I would like the most. If K2 is even slower to get started than K1, I think I'll probably give that a hard pass. Jade Empire looks interesting, but if it's very short and the areas are small and restrictive, that doesn't greatly appeal to me. I played ME1 and I liked it a lot. I liked the original setting and thought the plot writing was very good - enough for me to make up for the possible lack of freedom. Imo, it did a great job of presenting the player with a deep mystery and pulling back the curtain very gradually, with a lot of suspense and drama.

I haven't played Bloodlines, but I've heard great things and it's high on my 'to play' list. Gothic 1/2 also look really good and I'm very keen to play those as well. I'm actually playing Divinity: Original Sin 1 at the moment. It's a good game. I love their engine and the turn-based combat, although the plot and world design leave something to be desired. I probably should have skipped it and gone straight to 2.

Thanks again for your advice and happy gaming! :-)

Have you tried Pillars of Eternity? It might be just what you are looking for. I've not played it but I've seen let's plays and it looks like an updated Baldur's gate 2.

Hi. I have PoE and I've played some of it. It is a really good game and I like it a lot and yes, it is like a more up-to-date Baldurs Gate. I didn't finish it because I got distracted by other things at the time, but I would like to come back to it at some point.

I think something I dislike in general is RPGs that are targetted primarily for consoles. Because it always seems to involve some amount of 'dumbing down', streamlining, more 'hand holding', etc. I think that's another reason why I wasn't so keen on Kotor 1 and tbh also the later Elder Scrolls games. What I like about Larian is that they seem to be prioritizing PC and not bowing down to consoles.

It's not short at all. You'll go to a lot of different areas, and have companions to choose from, but it is very linear. IIRC, the only choice you get is the ending. I'm glad I played it as an asian setting was a nice change of pace, even though I won't play it again.

Though they're stealth games, not RPGs, you might enjoy Thief 1/2. What really appealed to me here were the very large maps that you can explore however you wish. No party, no character development, but a decent story. To me the big seller here is the freedom of exploration. You can race to finish each map or take your time and look around. If freedom and exploration appeal to you, you might enjoy them.

Never listen to hype, and take anything said online with a barrel of salt, including what I say. This is why I always suggest watching gameplay videos to really get a sense of whether the graphics/ UI/ plot/ mechanics/ etc appeal to you or not.

I like the look of the Jade Empire setting a lot, but I don't think it will really appeal to me if it is very linear, with small areas, as you say. I played a demo of Thief back in the day and thought it was really cool. I would definitely like to play it some more and it is on my wishlist.

That's good advice about not listening to hype and I agree about watching gameplay videos. Rave reviews aren't going to mean very much if it's just not the sort of the game that I like.