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Radeon 21.4.1 (latest without cert problems), RX580 (8GB), Windows 7 x64, after running a little, the screen got all weird, then the BSoD. I was testing hundreds of products, and this crazy thing is the only one which made my system collapse which is shocking. The only BSoD I ever was having was in the past year related to my mistake on cooling, that's all, nothing else happen, all was great. I understand that statistically most games work fine on 7 despite the bogus "Works on: 10" without it and someone may try, but this case is not that.

I don't know what the dev has done to make systems die in interaction, but it's done and I think it's very important for everyone to know that. Want space? Pick any other that doesn't do insane BSoDs, doesn't matter much, most others done better and more importantly safer. Alternatively dig out some old nice legacy version when it was free on the site, the game used to run amazing on 7 in the very old past like in 2018 or something before the dev started to do whatever this is. I used to somewhat like this project before it caused damage, now no more, I strongly advice to not risk your system, this game is not worth.

Of course anyone can try for themselves, but don't tell I did not warn you with my extremely unlucky experience.
Post edited December 07, 2022 by hohohocrapdetector
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hohohocrapdetector: Radeon 21.4.1 (latest without cert problems), RX580 (8GB), Windows 7 x64, after running a little, the screen got all weird, then the BSoD. [...]
Truth is, such computer configuration can't be tested by devs.
Looks like a crash in windows libraries, did you try and reinstall graphics drivers at least? I'm afraid that in order to have meaningful information about your BSOD you'll have to share more than what you posted.
You can check for errors with the Event Viewer from the Control Panel, surely the library causing BSOD will be mentioned as an Error event in the System log, but you could find some clue even in the Application log
Mosfet32:
1. Windows 7 has no latest and is 100% abandoned by AMD;
2. The latest driver, 22.11.2, is full of bugs for Space Engine, quote:
- Anyone know if Space Engine now works?
- Nope. I submitted a bug report to amd and space engine folks. The space engine folks said it's their top priority to fix.
www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/z9t29f/adrenalin_edition_22112_release_notes/
3. The core dumps and detailed logs might include non-anon info, not all users may share it and that's their right;
4. Who is to blame? Maybe the engine, maybe AMD, maybe both, no idea, but it is indeed dangerious to run at the current point.

In other words, the Windows libraries have 100% nothing to do with the problem. How can it be, logically speaking? A low level screen blinking, then sadden black for a second, then white noise screen, then self-reboot, with no actual "blue" screen to be seen, nothing very meaningful, the logs tell the same (not a library issue). I can freely reproduce it on clean legal Windows with nothing but Windows updates, motherboard/GPU drivers plus one game, this very game. This matter is the custom game engine / AMD driver issue, nothing more, nothing less. Is it not sort of strange neither side thought AMD might be to blame in not-very-small part?

Perhaps if it did work on some older AMD driver and 100% does now (tested by at least several hours), will be good to know which, would help some; If you have anyone anywhere with non-prehistoric AMD hardware, then do have the way to test the problems on AMD yourself. Considering the high severity, may only wish the best of luck on solving this Hell.
Post edited December 09, 2022 by gpug2
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gpug2: Mosfet32:
1. Windows 7 has no latest and is 100% abandoned by AMD;
2. The latest driver, 22.11.2, is full of bugs for Space Engine, quote:
- Anyone know if Space Engine now works?
- Nope. I submitted a bug report to amd and space engine folks. The space engine folks said it's their top priority to fix.
www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/z9t29f/adrenalin_edition_22112_release_notes/
3. The core dumps and detailed logs might include non-anon info, not all users may share it and that's their right;
4. Who is to blame? Maybe the engine, maybe AMD, maybe both, no idea, but it is indeed dangerious to run at the current point.

In other words, the Windows libraries have 100% nothing to do with the problem. How can it be, logically speaking? A low level screen blinking, then sadden black for a second, then white noise screen, then self-reboot, with no actual "blue" screen to be seen, nothing very meaningful, the logs tell the same (not a library issue). I can freely reproduce it on clean legal Windows with nothing but Windows updates, motherboard/GPU drivers plus one game, this very game. This matter is the custom game engine / AMD driver issue, nothing more, nothing less. Is it not sort of strange neither side thought AMD might be to blame in not-very-small part?

Perhaps if it did work on some older AMD driver and 100% does now (tested by at least several hours), will be good to know which, would help some; If you have anyone anywhere with non-prehistoric AMD hardware, then do have the way to test the problems on AMD yourself. Considering the high severity, may only wish the best of luck on solving this Hell.
Have you tested it on multiple sets of hardware, or only one system? Multiple driver versions, or only one (yes I know you can't use newer drivers, but you can try even older ones)? If not, then the only thing that has been effectively ruled out is problems with OS files. Issues related to hardware or video driver remain possible.

In the event that SE can be singled out as the cause of such a significant system crash (which would be the first time that has ever happened in SE's entire history), then there is nothing to be done except not to use SE on Windows 7, as we already advise people not to in the first place.
It is rather a Radeon fault, not SE itself.

At least the very first version of SE that has been available on gog.com (I bought it here on day one) ran just fine on Windows 7. My setup consisted of Windows 7 and Nvidia 1050Ti card. Since then I upgraded my system to RTX and to Windows 10 so I can't tell anything about current version.
Post edited December 20, 2022 by autumnlover
Yeah, clearly AMD messed up. The title of the topic might be better to become "May Cause BSoD & Performance Problems on Modern AMD drivers."
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harbingerdawn: which would be the first time that has ever happened in SE's entire history
In depth, how can we be sure? What if it happened, but no user reported and blocks the game's access to the Internet? The majority of people are listeners, readers, not writers and forum speakers nor bug reporters. It's not the impossible for a game to cause a BSoD, no driver is perfect. A BSoD on an OS is not a reason to put the OS into Recycle Bin. Shall we put Windows 10 with its PC into the bin for a bug in the driver which is unstable not only on Space Engine and which is known to cause crashes? This particular version has the reputation of one of the most buggiest (see: Reddit).
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harbingerdawn: Have you tested it on multiple sets of hardware, or only one system? Multiple driver versions, or only one (yes I know you can't use newer drivers, but you can try even older ones)? If not, then the only thing that has been effectively ruled out is problems with OS files. Issues related to hardware or video driver remain possible.

In the event that SE can be singled out as the cause of such a significant system crash (which would be the first time that has ever happened in SE's entire history), then there is nothing to be done except not to use SE on Windows 7, as we already advise people not to in the first place.
Let's be very clear: AMD made mistakes. For starters, I could reliably reproduce a 100% BSoD on Alchemist Adventure by ALT+TAB the game several times, almost always with enabled performance monitor overlay. Bizarre? Absolutely! Stutter on "Wildcat Gun Machine" and everything else unexpectedly. To blame Windows 7 for that is equal to blaming a postal bird for a badly handwritten message while saying "Let's kill the bird, it's the old bird's fault!" I am sure one could BSoD Windows 10 as well in the same circumstances on the same driver version and hardware. The Nvidia user above reports that the game worked fine on Nvidia, so, let's not rush up in outing Windows 7 in a such a not-well-thought fashion.

This is a modern AMD driver issue in how it handles Space Engine and how Space Engine uniquely interacts with it, capable to cause a BSoD at times and to cause bigger performance issues. On not advising to use Windows 7 in general, let me say one truthful number: 26. Only 26 "Windows 10 only" games (minority) out of ~200 "Windows 10 only" do not work, the vast majority does, and does very well, no issues, most of the GOG library is accessible, most newer games do support Windows 7 despite it having no "new" drivers. I personally tested by my very hands, wasting months on it, broading genre horizons. How can anyone be surprised the people do ignore the requirement if most of the time is pure disinformation and it does actually run? Is the optics not understood? Is it? The same will happen to just mentioning "Windows 10 only" in the Space Engine system requirements, people might ignore that because of the reality in practice.

Statistically, 75.44% of all the new GOG games this year (release date, not add date) support and list Windows 7, only less than 24.56% do not (of these, over 90.41% are misinforming customers): This means Windows 7 has 97.64% "does play" coverage in 2022 or huge 99.44% of the whole library; Windows 10 has 98.96% coverage on the store.
Post edited December 22, 2022 by SilentBleppassin
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SilentBleppassin: Yeah, clearly AMD messed up. The title of the topic might be better to become "May Cause BSoD & Performance Problems on Modern AMD drivers."
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harbingerdawn: which would be the first time that has ever happened in SE's entire history
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SilentBleppassin: In depth, how can we be sure? What if it happened, but no user reported and blocks the game's access to the Internet? The majority of people are listeners, readers, not writers and forum speakers nor bug reporters. It's not the impossible for a game to cause a BSoD, no driver is perfect. A BSoD on an OS is not a reason to put the OS into Recycle Bin. Shall we put Windows 10 with its PC into the bin for a bug in the driver which is unstable not only on Space Engine and which is known to cause crashes? This particular version has the reputation of one of the most buggiest (see: Reddit).
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harbingerdawn: Have you tested it on multiple sets of hardware, or only one system? Multiple driver versions, or only one (yes I know you can't use newer drivers, but you can try even older ones)? If not, then the only thing that has been effectively ruled out is problems with OS files. Issues related to hardware or video driver remain possible.

In the event that SE can be singled out as the cause of such a significant system crash (which would be the first time that has ever happened in SE's entire history), then there is nothing to be done except not to use SE on Windows 7, as we already advise people not to in the first place.
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SilentBleppassin: Let's be very clear: AMD made mistakes. For starters, I could reliably reproduce a 100% BSoD on Alchemist Adventure by ALT+TAB the game several times, almost always with enabled performance monitor overlay. Bizarre? Absolutely! Stutter on "Wildcat Gun Machine" and everything else unexpectedly. To blame Windows 7 for that is equal to blaming a postal bird for a badly handwritten message while saying "Let's kill the bird, it's the old bird's fault!" I am sure one could BSoD Windows 10 as well in the same circumstances on the same driver version and hardware. The Nvidia user above reports that the game worked fine on Nvidia, so, let's not rush up in outing Windows 7 in a such a not-well-thought fashion.

This is a modern AMD driver issue in how it handles Space Engine and how Space Engine uniquely interacts with it, capable to cause a BSoD at times and to cause bigger performance issues. On not advising to use Windows 7 in general, let me say one truthful number: 26. Only 26 "Windows 10 only" games (minority) out of ~200 "Windows 10 only" do not work, the vast majority does, and does very well, no issues, most of the GOG library is accessible, most newer games do support Windows 7 despite it having no "new" drivers. I personally tested by my very hands, wasting months on it, broading genre horizons. How can anyone be surprised the people do ignore the requirement if most of the time is pure disinformation and it does actually run? Is the optics not understood? Is it? The same will happen to just mentioning "Windows 10 only" in the Space Engine system requirements, people might ignore that because of the reality in practice.

Statistically, 75.44% of all the new GOG games this year (release date, not add date) support and list Windows 7, only less than 24.56% do not (of these, over 90.41% are misinforming customers): This means Windows 7 has 97.64% "does play" coverage in 2022 or huge 99.44% of the whole library; Windows 10 has 98.96% coverage on the store.
I don't have time to respond in detail after doing so for your post in the other thread, but I can say that it seems you did not understand the majority of what I said, as almost everything you implicitly attributed to me does not match what I actually wrote.
It seems you do not understand the market or the store's stats nor the optics of how... disappointing your approach is. I have the misfortune to read what you typically write on Steam, towards users of Intel GPUs or some entrerprise-grade GPUs, that did leave a bad taste in my mouth as well. I therefore have no choice but to say the game should be avoided because the developer is dismissive and ignorant of customers not on Windows 10, including Linux users (no Linux build). The worst experience of the year on my record unlike with an amazing Ukranian developer who is suprisingly responsive, has Linux builds, pro-customer and rushed up to self-test/update the system requirements as soon as possible.
Post edited December 26, 2022 by SilentBleppassin
21.4.1 was a bugfest by itself, while AMD Driver 22.5.1 is reported to be far from perfect:
www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/uv1ohu/huge_driver_issue_w_2251/
www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/umh40e/amd_software_adrenalin_edition_2251_release_notes/

Does the developer use AMD in the 1st place, what testing is done if any? It appears the most so-call "testing" was done is on Nvidia with a singular Windows 10 PC, considering how absurdly long it took to notice problems. In general, 22.2.1 is reported to be better for newer GPUs and OSes; For RX580 specifically, is 21.2.3, the next versions can and do have problems here and there, the only provided from 2022 (22.6.1) is unstable, 21.5.2 and 21.5.1 are no good too. Trying the 21.2.3 version hopefully would resolve most issues with driver instability. It remains to be seen if AMD will start to do proper quality control in putting stability 1st.

Of course if someone doesn't want to buy this game from Russia, don't. Having a better driver is no excuse for what happen.
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SilentBleppassin: It seems you do not understand the market or the store's stats nor the optics of how... disappointing your approach is.
What approach? Not supporting 14-year-old operating systems that are only compatible with obsolete video drivers? I'm not sure what you mean about the market, unless you're talking about the user share of Windows 7? If so, the number of Mac users is larger than the number of Windows 7 users by a significant margin, so if you're concerned about market representation it would make sense to advocate for a Mac version (which we plan to make) before talking about support for Linux (which we also plan to do) or support for obsolete operating systems.
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SilentBleppassin: I have the misfortune to read what you typically write on Steam, towards users of Intel GPUs or some entrerprise-grade GPUs, that did leave a bad taste in my mouth as well.
My interactions with users of integrated graphics consists of me telling them that their hardware does not meet the requirements for our software, followed by me offering suggestions for mitigating the issues they're having if I can think of any. I'm not sure what more you want me to do. Regarding enterprise GPU users, all I have said is that historically the drivers for those GPUs have not worked well with SpaceEngine. Again, I don't know what more you want me to do.
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SilentBleppassin: I therefore have no choice but to say the game should be avoided because the developer is dismissive and ignorant of customers not on Windows 10, including Linux users (no Linux build).
How are we "ignorant" of customers not using Windows 10? Regarding Linux, you make it sound like making a Linux build is as easy as pressing a button – if it were, we would have released a Linux version 10 years ago. We simply have not had the development resources necessary to port the software to Mac or Linux, nor the customer support resources necessary to support multiple OS families. We are not a big team, and we do not have the backing and resources of a publisher.

You also don't seem to understand SpaceEngine's current state of development – the engine is far from finished, and in fact needs a near-total rebuild from the ground up (currently in progress) before we can do everything we need to do to call it "finished". That rebuild is a prerequisite for porting the program to other OS families, and in fact is being written with cross-platform support in mind.
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anitmetee: Does the developer use AMD in the 1st place, what testing is done if any? It appears the most so-call "testing" was done is on Nvidia with a singular Windows 10 PC, considering how absurdly long it took to notice problems
Of course we use AMD machines for testing, we have multiple systems with AMD GPUs, notably 500 and 6000 series cards. One of our newly-hired programmers also uses an AMD GPU for all daily work. Testing was certainly not done on a single PC, that would be impossible as we have both closed and open beta test phases for each major update.

I don't know what you mean about "how absurdly long it took to notice problems"; problems with AMD's newest driver family have been known since shortly after 22.7.1 entered public beta testing back in late July. Our first news post to our Steam customers on the subject was published less than 2 weeks after the driver released, so we obviously knew about the issue and had done testing and evaluation of it before then. We likewise knew about and had publicly mentioned being aware of various specific issues with Polaris and RDNA-family GPUs long before that, and we have been discovering and dealing with AMD-specific issues for over 12 years at this point.
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anitmetee: For RX580 specifically, is 21.2.3, the next versions can and do have problems here and there, the only provided from 2022 (22.6.1) is unstable, 21.5.2 and 21.5.1 are no good too. Trying the 21.2.3 version hopefully would resolve most issues with driver instability. It remains to be seen if AMD will start to do proper quality control in putting stability 1st.
We recommended 22.5.1 because it was the final non-beta driver released by AMD prior to the issues caused by their OGL support rewrite in the 22.7.1 family, which officially released as 22.11.2. We cannot recommend older drivers as you suggest since they are no longer listed for download on AMD's website for Windows 10 users.

I must also ask whether these assessments of driver quality are based on testing in a collection of various software, or testing with SpaceEngine in particular, as only the latter is relevant when evaluating which drivers we recommend using with our software.
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anitmetee: Of course if someone doesn't want to buy this game from Russia, don't. Having a better driver is no excuse for what happen.
What do you mean "this game from Russia"? How is the nationality of the program's author relevant? Unless you are suggesting that no one use software made by Russian programmers? If so, you should also advocate boycotts of Tetris, MSI Afterburner, RTSS, ENBSeries, DCS, War Thunder, and Escape from Tarkov, just to name a well-known few. Or are you saying that people should not buy products whose revenue goes to Russia? If so, then there's no reason to object to SpaceEngine as none of our revenue has gone to Russia, directly or indirectly, since 2021. We are an American company, our revenue is received at an American bank, and SpaceEngine team members are paid ONLY if their place of permanent residence is not within any sanctioned country.

"Having a better driver is no excuse for what happen" doesn't make linguistic sense, can you elaborate please? You can reply in your native language if it would make things easier.
The game is not listed as Windows 7 compatible (not even Windows 8 is listed.), so it's really the OPs fault if he tries that and fails. But some people need to have their face rubbed into the obvious.

If a game can cause a BSOD, then there's something very wrong with the drivers.
Maybe add minimum driver version to the system requirements? Or the earliest Windows 10 version it was tested on? After all not all Windows 10 versions are the same.
Post edited April 04, 2023 by neumi5694
sorry, false
Post edited April 12, 2023 by Kosmotim