first of all sorry for my bad english,

So i keep asking myself, why i enjoy Risen/Gothic more than the best rpgs like elderscrolls or the witcher?
Risen/Gothic has clearly less content than elderscrolls games, the combat is lacking compare to the withcher and also it is full of fetch quests!

So, What make Risen/Gothic so special, is it just nostalgia?

The land space in Gothic 1 and 2 is less than in Morrowind, but it's far more interesting per square meter.

I like Gothic 1 and 2 and Risen combat a lot better than combat in the Witcher.

Gothic also has better three-dimensional exploration because of the excellent climbing and swimming.

There are a lot of things about Gothic 1 and 2 that are better than other games in the same genre.

Agreed that the world of Risen/Gothic is not as barren as The elderscrolls and it encourage the player to search every corner because nothing respawns, maybe this is the strongest element of the series.

I enjoy combat in gothic/risen more too but you have to agree it always has problems for example combat works in a 1 vs 1 duel but then i have to fight more than 1 enemies it is very chaotic and messy, and freeze spell is op.

I love to be able to climb cliffs and swim underwater, like classic tomb raider, but sadly we don't get enough of it, for example in Risen 1-2 they removed swimming and in risen 1 i mostly levitated than climbing, i really wish for more platforming with jumping/swimming and climbing, hope ELEX will have more of it.

Gothic 1 and 2 had great climbing because there were no hints about where you could and could not climb. You would just look at a place and say, "I wonder whether I can climb up there." In Risen there are little ledges that basically tell you "climb here." That's still better than Gothic 3, which had no climbing.

Another thing the Gothics did well, and Risen might do even better, is traps and hidden switches in dungeons. I love lots of secret doors and traps like Raiders of the Lost Ark.

Agreed in Gothic 1 and 2 you could even dive and explore underwater too.

Traps in Risen felt a little cheap to me, you could get smashed from the ceiling without any warning, risen 2-3 tried to fix this with a quick time event, but agreed deathtraps are cool and deadly.

So, lets see that we have gathered.
I enjoy Risen/Gothic because
1) the world is detailed and not barren
2) it encourage me to explore because everything is limited and nothing respawns.
3) exploration is three-dimensional with athletic skills like climbing/swimming
4) secret switches and deadly traps make the adventure mysterious and deadly
5) combat is unique without trying to mimic other rpgs
6) the world feels believable with npcs doing they work/sleep and chat to each other

Gothic 1 was my first 3d openworld rpg, i loved the fact that people react to me then i draw my swords or ask me for protection money it felt like a real community with each own rules, also you had some time limited quests if i remember right Whistler gives you money for his sword and if you delay he will attack you and call you a thief.

Another thing i enjoyed is the fact that monsters are brutal, you will feel lucky if you kill your first scavanger.

It is hard for me to pinpoint what exactly makes gothic games, ...well, gothic games. Piranha Bytes managed to recreate an oldschool hardcore rpg feel and mixed it with intresting atmosphere, big, open, organic world to explore, challenging difficulty while maintaining their own unique characteristic.

It's strange that Risens 2&3 don't play like a proper gothic game, despite superficially retaining the above mentioned things. The pirate setting is not as engaging, open world was switched for a network of corridors, combat became even more ridiculous and some streamlining here and there detracts from the experience. None of those is gamebreaking alone, but as a whole builds quite a different game.

Ok, I respect your opinion, and while you're not exactly knocking Risen 2 or 3, and I agree partially with what you've written; I've got to push back a little bit..

Ignoring Risen 3 for the moment (because I haven't played it yet); I'm going push back a little on the pirate setting, and "open world" parts.


Playing Risen 2 right now (not sure how far in - just completed building and sailing my 'raft'); and as far as the pirate setting, to me it's more of a "reluctant pirate" setting. The protagonist isn't a pirate by heart - it's a role he's playing to further his ability to advance his goals. In that sense, it seems an engaging enough 'pirate setting' (he gets to learn about pirate lore; and sail a 'pirate' ship).


Regarding the 'open world was switched for a network of corridors'; I think I get what you're saying (it isn't one giant monolithic 'zone' like Gothic 3 was; instead it's a set of 'interconnected areas') but use of the word 'corridors' implies, well, basically, that it's a "series of tubes" like any "corridor shooter" (like the Metro series), when it's really more of a set of interconnected "large zones" - each of which has plenty of freedom of movement and a variety of locales.

I don't see how that's different, than say, all of the Stalker games, the Fallouts, Baldurs Gates, Underrail, Freelancer, and any number of other titles that have "zones" (hopefully that's a variety enough to sell my point).

In any case, to me it's definitely not "corridors".


I agree, at least partially, with some of your other points.


But, taking combat, for example - I've never cared for the combat at all in the Gothics/Risens - it just never "clicks" with me - it always feels awkward. And I hate that the way I like to "fight" (often using multiple short keypresses of the same key - like my PC is taking short steps) results in the "combat dodge" feature kicking in and I end up "rolling" all over the place. I hate that and wish I could turn it off. For that reason, I play these titles on Easy - otherwise the frustrating combat would have me quit.

This isn't the first time I've expressed that <i>opinion</i>.


But they've crafted very cool "worlds" and, if you enjoy large, crafted RP "worlds", then it's worthwhile to put up with the crappy combat in order to experience those worlds.


I'm mixed about the "streamlining". Take edibles, for example. I find I don't mind that they all combine into a generic "provisions" pile. I guess the streamlining seems "mild".


Anyways, this is getting into tl;dr territory. I'll wrap by saying - I'm not knocking your opinion - just contrasting it a bit with mine - for those potential readers that are perhaps taking such comments into account whenst making a decision to acquire these titles. They're worthwhile for the RP worlds they've crafted - not so much for their "combat". They're not "corridors", they're "zones". :)

Well, the new Risens are not bad games by any stretch of imagination. In fact compared to many contemporary market offerings that try to pass as RPG games, they still come up on top. My criticism is more like wondering what would make a good game into a timeless masterpiece.

About the setting, it may be just a cultural thing for me. The original gothic world was strongly based on historical germanic medieval aesthetic that instantly grips my attention and allows me to fully immerse in it (geographical and mental proximity aspect I guess). The new carribean aesthetic they chose to do is just meh, I am totally indifferent to it.

Regarding openworldness. 'Corridor' might not have been the most precise term to use. You still have total freedom to wander wherever you like whenever you like. But I challenge you to find one spot in the entire game where you can stand still, turn around 360º, and not see either an untraversable mountain ridge or open ocean. So no 'nice vista point, I wonder how many hours will it take to explore that tower I can see on the horizon' moments any more. Again it may be a generational difference, but in the olden days games didn't use to hold your hand like this.

And btw, Fallouts, Underrail and the first BG don't do 'corridors' either. OTOH open world is not an integral feature of a good RPG. Actually it is hard and costly to pull off properly, and there are plenty of great games that are fairly linear. Yeah, the devs had like two decades and still don't know how to do combat in an unaggravating manner. Take those edibles. Combining them into single pile is a suberb idea. The million different foods in Gothics didn't really add all that much to the enjoyment. Accounting for the fact that navigating inventory UI is bothersome as is, big plus for that innovation. Two seconds later you open a loot chest and the view switches away from the world, completely shattering immersion. Aaaaaaargh!!!!!!!

Take the combat system. They really, really tried to make it more tactical, give the player a few options besides franticly mashing buttons hoping for the best. Kudos for that. And two keypresses later you rolldodge fly around the screen. And you start to wonder whether the PC is a humanoid or a rubber ball bouncing against a wall. One step forward, one step back, two steps sideways. Feature after feature they managed to erase every positive design choice by something else, right next to it.

All in all, if I didn't care about these games I wouldn't be wasting time discussing them. Just take my rambling with a grain of salt, as coming from someone who hopes that the next time Piranha Bytes will get it just right.

IMHO, it's simply:

Modern AAA RPGs have become too expansive, too bloated, and lacking in personality. They feel written by corporate committee to appeal to the largest number of people and therefore seem intrinsically generic.

I liken the modern AAA RPG industry to Hollywood in the 1950's and 1960's -- huge spectacles with big stars and lots of money on-screen but little resemblance to real life and a lack of "heart." Meanwhile, the European film industry had to make due on much smaller budgets, so they (especially the Italians) moved from strict low-budget imitations of Hollywood to their own style of "exploitation cinema;" in order to make money they had to create memorable characters with personality, stories that felt gritty, challenging or shocking, and do it all on a modest budget. And from this came one of the most important genres in film -- the "Spaghetti Western."

If you play Gothic, Risen, Two Worlds II, Spiders' games or even The Witcher (which started as pretty much indie... and now pretty much indie with government backing), you can feel both the 60's European film industry DNA and definitely the "Spaghetti Western" DNA -- the reluctant, morally ambivalent main character being the most-used trope. Heck, often they even used that whispered, menacing Eastwood drawl (Geralt being one of teh newest)... although now often peppered with profanity.

So what?

Well, the lower budgets on European RPGs has demanded the melding of extreme creativity and shock value, and once in awhile -- like A Fistfull of Dollars or Gothic -- those elements create something so unique and engaging that it reminds you what modern AAA games are lacking. Did it matter in "Spaghetti Westerns" that all of the shots were as technically perfect as in a Hollywood film? No. Does it matter that combat in Gothic is as technically proficient as AAA? No. Because the experience -- when working -- is more than adding all the elements.

The Gothic and Risen games are modest technically, but wonderful creatively, and to many of those not blinded by the games media's obsession with AAA, Piranha Bytes' worlds are the antidote to corporate committee games.

IMHO exploration is not climbing and swimming. Gothic 3 have a insane large are with a lot of thinks to do. Risen, i like a little risen 3(despite the terrible starting). The major problem of Piranha Bytes in Risen series is to try force melee combat in everyone despite how terrible his melee combat systems are. The combat in Gothic 2/3(melee magic or archery) is pretty good, but look to risen 3 for example.

They designed a terrible combat. You can't do a single sword strike/cut/trust without spending 874165416.5 seconds doing a 720º rotating overswing cut that is longer that push a pistol, fire a round and put the pistol back to pocket. And PB forces you to play in melee in Risen 3. They added crossbows with a melee effective range(that is ludicrous. What is the point of crafting a crossbow?) In Gothic 3, even with starting bow and no improvement in archery, i can hit enemies very far away. So until you get magic or a musket, you will suffer a lot in Risen 3. And R3 combat relies a lot of telegraphing...

In risen 1 ranged weapons are useless. Arrow speed and drop are too terrible. And do almost no damage. And magic, you need to complete a lot of boring quests in order to be able to use magic. And can use magic only in one path...

Gothic 2 combat system is different. Even in melee is quite enjoyable. Require more skill, is less annoying, more fast paced. Gothic 3 magic is amazing. To be honest is a little overpowered in end game, but Gothic 3 still a good solid game. Gothic 3 is not good in history, lore and exploration as Gothic 2. I think that G3 is more fun, but G2 is a best RPG

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Other thing that i din't like about R1/2/3 is that you can't play in first person. Gothic 2/3 in first person is very immersive. And compared with modern generic RPGs, even Risen 2(worst piranha bytes game in my opinion) is a "good" game...

I enjoyed Gothic 1 because of the interesting story and environment. Even though it was one of the first games I have played, I still haven't seen a game where you would like to run from a prison and save the world instead.

I enjoyed Gothic 3 because of the beautiful vistas, soundtrack(so much that I learned to play the Faring song on guitar) and seeing old friends. Apart from that, I really liked the feeling when I freed a city, then hunting the fleeing Orcs. Again, I haven't experienced this in another game.

I enjoyed Risen because it reminded me of Gothic.

I enjoyed Risen 2 because of how relaxing the game was. I also liked some of the characters, mainly Jaffar. It also improved some gameplay mechanics from Risen 1. For example, in Risen 2, you don't have to activate teleports in order to fast travel. Just visit a location of some importance. Then you can travel there anytime you like.

I enjoyed all Risen/Gothic games because of the humour they contain.

I have no Idea what makes Gothic Special. But Risen whas just a fine storybranch adventure where the decicion which class you are decide for which group you fight.

So far, complete agreement (everyone's points, even when contradictory, make sense) but, even though not one of the better RPGs, I like the lock-picking system in Two Worlds 2 better.

Oh, and just as a reminder, Gothic I and II were zoned too (called Chapters) and a lot of people were upset about the lack of said chapters even to the point of modding chapters back into Gothic 3. It really, IMO, depends on the story as to which is a better method.

Also, you can really see the turmoil at PB right at the beginning of III - they had a ready made way of making weak starting characters in rags at the end of II - sailing in a dangerously overladened ship that was likely to sink in a storm but instead used the rediculous, "oh, pirates stole our ship!" thing.