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The way I see it, nobody has chosen Epic Store because they wanted to give the consumers a better product or because it's a great place for consumers to get their games. In every case it is because Epic is dangling a lot of money in front of devs as well as a greater revenue ratio. This has not lead to developers reducing prices or anything like that, though. The conclusion is fairly obvious.

Devs are entitled to make that choice. But as a consumer, it pisses me off when developers take me for granted to the extent that they think they can metaphorically take a dump in my face and still expect me to give them my money.

Why such strong language? Because Epic Store is rubbish at the moment. It's a feature-starved mess where finding the game you want is difficult and everything about it is in flux. I suspect that DD signed the deal at a time where the Epic Store refund policy was essentially "piss off". Are Epic GDPR compliant? I suspect DD didn't even ask.

Any developer who insists that their customers must be subjected to that kind of rubbish clearly do not care the slightest about their customers. They clearly take sales for granted.

I don't know about everybody else, but personally I am sick of that mentality. There isn't a game good enough for me to suffer that kind of attitude. Life just isn't long enough.
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Arachnarok_Rider: The way I see it, nobody has chosen Epic Store because they wanted to give the consumers a better product or because it's a great place for consumers to get their games. In every case it is because Epic is dangling a lot of money in front of devs as well as a greater revenue ratio. This has not lead to developers reducing prices or anything like that, though. The conclusion is fairly obvious.

Devs are entitled to make that choice. But as a consumer, it pisses me off when developers take me for granted to the extent that they think they can metaphorically take a dump in my face and still expect me to give them my money.

Why such strong language? Because Epic Store is rubbish at the moment. It's a feature-starved mess where finding the game you want is difficult and everything about it is in flux. I suspect that DD signed the deal at a time where the Epic Store refund policy was essentially "piss off". Are Epic GDPR compliant? I suspect DD didn't even ask.

Any developer who insists that their customers must be subjected to that kind of rubbish clearly do not care the slightest about their customers. They clearly take sales for granted.

I don't know about everybody else, but personally I am sick of that mentality. There isn't a game good enough for me to suffer that kind of attitude. Life just isn't long enough.
They are also a small indie studio, I doubt they swim in money and probably having some more financial security in exchange for a timed exclusive was extremely difficult to turn down for them.
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Arachnarok_Rider: The way I see it, nobody has chosen Epic Store because they wanted to give the consumers a better product or because it's a great place for consumers to get their games. In every case it is because Epic is dangling a lot of money in front of devs as well as a greater revenue ratio. This has not lead to developers reducing prices or anything like that, though. The conclusion is fairly obvious.

Devs are entitled to make that choice. But as a consumer, it pisses me off when developers take me for granted to the extent that they think they can metaphorically take a dump in my face and still expect me to give them my money.

Why such strong language? Because Epic Store is rubbish at the moment. It's a feature-starved mess where finding the game you want is difficult and everything about it is in flux. I suspect that DD signed the deal at a time where the Epic Store refund policy was essentially "piss off". Are Epic GDPR compliant? I suspect DD didn't even ask.

Any developer who insists that their customers must be subjected to that kind of rubbish clearly do not care the slightest about their customers. They clearly take sales for granted.

I don't know about everybody else, but personally I am sick of that mentality. There isn't a game good enough for me to suffer that kind of attitude. Life just isn't long enough.
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Det_Bullock: They are also a small indie studio, I doubt they swim in money and probably having some more financial security in exchange for a timed exclusive was extremely difficult to turn down for them.
That is certainly very conceivable and I can sympathize with that position. And like I said, devs are entitled to make whatever choices they think will benefit them or their company. I'm not saying that they should not make the best decisions they can.

But their decision also involved pushing customers towards a terrible store, promoting said rubbish store, and promiting whatever practices that store decides on, which we still don't really know for sure what will be. Sure, Epic has made some promises but nothing prevents them from changing their minds.

And they're doing this with zero compensation for their customers. Not even an apology for pushing us towards what was then and is still a complete garbage heap of a store. They're seeing a better revenue split but that does not translate into a better price, does it? Or a "thank you for putting up with fucking Epic" free piece of DLC? Nope.

Epic wins on this, DD wins on this, and the consumers get to pay for it. As usual.

By the way, I know of precisely one store that has been pushing a consumer friendly approach. And it sure isn't the one DD took money from in their exclusivity deal. More competition for Steam also means more competition for GOG. Would you be happy if Epic pushes GOG out of the market? I bet DD wouldn't mind.
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Det_Bullock: They are also a small indie studio, I doubt they swim in money and probably having some more financial security in exchange for a timed exclusive was extremely difficult to turn down for them.
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Arachnarok_Rider: That is certainly very conceivable and I can sympathize with that position. And like I said, devs are entitled to make whatever choices they think will benefit them or their company. I'm not saying that they should not make the best decisions they can.

But their decision also involved pushing customers towards a terrible store, promoting said rubbish store, and promiting whatever practices that store decides on, which we still don't really know for sure what will be. Sure, Epic has made some promises but nothing prevents them from changing their minds.

And they're doing this with zero compensation for their customers. Not even an apology for pushing us towards what was then and is still a complete garbage heap of a store. They're seeing a better revenue split but that does not translate into a better price, does it? Or a "thank you for putting up with fucking Epic" free piece of DLC? Nope.

Epic wins on this, DD wins on this, and the consumers get to pay for it. As usual.

By the way, I know of precisely one store that has been pushing a consumer friendly approach. And it sure isn't the one DD took money from in their exclusivity deal. More competition for Steam also means more competition for GOG. Would you be happy if Epic pushes GOG out of the market? I bet DD wouldn't mind.
I'm not, and I stated in the post above yours that I'll probably get it on gog when the exclusivity expires rather than getting it on Epic.
Also as someone who has to deal with on-line travel agencies for a job I guess for a developer it's not that different, having to put up with group options that last for months isn't ideal for us but since we are small and can't afford to be picky we have to put up with it and I wouldn't be suprised if it's a similar deal with DD.
In general I find that attacking small developers when they are forced by big shot corporations and market forces bigger than them to do this kind of stuff is missing the point of why these choices happen.
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Det_Bullock: that small developers forced by big shot corporations and market forces bigger than them to do these choices
That's bad for the game, if they had to do this choice. It means they badly managed their project.
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Det_Bullock: that small developers forced by big shot corporations and market forces bigger than them to do these choices
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ERISS: That's bad for the game, if they had to do this choice. It means they badly managed their project.
When you are that small "mismanagement" may mean you couldn't work for a week because you got the flu at 39° and couldn't literally get up from your bed thus falling behind schedule, DD ain't swimming in money like CIG and are incredibly small (they ain't doing VR because they have only that one engineer and VR gives him nausea, for crying out loud!), even if they are on schedule and managed anything to perfection shit may still happen and some safety margin is always welcome.
Post edited March 18, 2019 by Det_Bullock
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ERISS: That's bad for the game, if they had to do this choice. It means they badly managed their project.
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Det_Bullock: When you are that small "mismanagement" may mean you couldn't work for a week because you got the flu at 39° and couldn't literally get up from your bed thus falling behind schedule, DD ain't swimming in money like CIG and are incredibly small (they ain't doing VR because they have only that one engineer and VR gives him nausea, for crying out loud!), even if they are on schedule and managed anything to perfection shit may still happen and some safety margin is always welcome.
I work for a small (non game) developer myself. And some times you have to bite down in a turd sandwhich, absolutely. But we do our best to be helpful to our customers and when we cannot, we apologise to them.

What we don't do is tell one customer that he's shit out of luck because some vendor paid us a ton of money to use an inferior software as foundation for what we do, and therefore the customer can either piss off or enjoy whatever we decide to let him buy. And that's pretty much exactly what DD said in their press statement.

By the way, in unrelated news regarding the Epic Launcher...
https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2019-03-15-epic-responds-to-accusations-its-launcher-accesses-steam-data-without-permission
I'm in the "waiting for it to be out on GOG" camp.

Sorry, DD, I saw the first game on Steam and GoG and bought it pretty much immediately. I was one of the first people posting guides on how to run it on Linux. I don't usually get excited for games anymore, but this was a big, fat exception.

Epic game store is not an option for me because of my platform choice, so I guess I'll just be waiting for the exclusive period to run out. And even then, I'll probably wait for a sale, since I don't see any reason to pay full MSRP for a product that I'm getting at least a year late.
Post edited March 26, 2019 by SovetSov
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Det_Bullock: When you are that small "mismanagement" may mean you couldn't work for a week because you got the flu at 39° and couldn't literally get up from your bed thus falling behind schedule, DD ain't swimming in money like CIG and are incredibly small (they ain't doing VR because they have only that one engineer and VR gives him nausea, for crying out loud!), even if they are on schedule and managed anything to perfection shit may still happen and some safety margin is always welcome.
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Arachnarok_Rider: I work for a small (non game) developer myself. And some times you have to bite down in a turd sandwhich, absolutely. But we do our best to be helpful to our customers and when we cannot, we apologise to them.

What we don't do is tell one customer that he's shit out of luck because some vendor paid us a ton of money to use an inferior software as foundation for what we do, and therefore the customer can either piss off or enjoy whatever we decide to let him buy. And that's pretty much exactly what DD said in their press statement.
Last I checked they didn't start preorders or kickstarted the game like others did (that was indeed questionable at best), sincerely it's not that different from the time people retracted PC versions of games only to make console-only.
Also this isn't "software foundation", this is a shop.
I was disappointed for the temporary Windows store exclusive for Rise of The Tomb Raider too (which had similar reasons, that is developers needing or preferring to have some more money) and I don't remember people being this verbally violent about it.

The data thing is why I never keep anything on autostart that isn't CH Control Manager, not even Galaxy or Steam, can't say I'm surprised but it sounds more like devs not thinking rather than some weird international conspiracy.
Post edited July 22, 2019 by Det_Bullock
Here is my take on it:

I don't like the Epic stuff, tried once and hated the way the system dealt with sales (no way to buy multiple titles at the same time) and most of my friends have a thing or two to talk about the store, so for now I have no intention to try that again. Epic exclusive titles are out of the question for me, at least for now.

I own more games on GoG than on any other platform (approaching 300 games), but I do have games on Steam - even some that are available on GoG now, like Mutant League Football - but many of those I consider to be GoG's fault because I had no way to know it would eventually be available here DRM-Free. I'm always hopeful they will become available through GoG Connect soon, or at heavily discounted (there should be a way for GoG to offer some discount for players that already own the game on Steam - maybe Epic et al in the Future - instead of you having to wait for it to be available through Connect, if ever).

Once I know for sure a game will be released on GoG, I have no problem waiting for it to be released here (most games have a discount on release, around 15-20%, which many times is enough for me).

If I got this right, R.G.Outlaw will be released on GoG eventually, right? I'll wait and buy it then.
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RafaelRamus: I do have games on Steam - even some that are available on GoG now - but many of those I consider to be GoG's fault because I had no way to know it would eventually be available here DRM-Free.
Don't blame GOG for your own greed. Nothing compells buying at Steam, just don't, like me.
Once I know for sure a game will be released on GoG, I have no problem waiting for it to be released here
You have no hope. Me, I don't wait for a GOG release, it's here, or not. I just hope.
I too will wait on this one out until it comes to GOG. I own the first on Steam & GOG. Would prefer to buy all my games on GOG

The game looks great but now the wait begins.........