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Neverwinter Nights seriesNWEE: What's up with the Beamdog hate?(38 posts) (38 posts) 
(38 posts) 
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This is my favourite topic
Posted October 18, 2018
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Kilivitz: I find that to be a stretch, specially considering the lead designer (James Ohlen) and writer (Lukas Kristjanson) haven't been involved.
Yep, Luke wrote 75% of BG and I haven't seen him post anything about the EEs. After my interview correspondence, I asked him about SoD and he didn't reply. I found that odd but there are many reasons why he might not have (too busy, can't be assed etc.)

I wish he would be more active on forums like Avellone is. He's got a lot of insight to offer.
NWN is a different story, as Oster was the original lead designer. PST:EE was also overseen by Chris Avellone. Not by coincidence, those haven't been mangled by questionable additions and changes.
It's early days yet with NWN:EE. One need only look on the Trello board to see the kind of nonsense being entertained.
Posted October 19, 2018
Along with the other misdeeds that have already been mentioned, Beamdog also irritated me with their rather dismissive attitude toward people who wanted full party control in NWNEE. Their response basically amounted to telling us that people who aren't playing multiplayer are playing the game wrong and that being stuck with moronic AI that makes pure caster companions useless and tactical combat an impossibility is an essential part of the artistic vision of NWN1. Now, they have recently signaled an interest in changing that stance and implementing FPC, which would go a long way toward improving my opinion of them and actually make me interested in getting NWNEE. However, their forum thread about it hasn't seen any updates from them since July, and as far as I know, they haven't spoken about the issue elsewhere.
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Leroux: That's a weird criticism to bring up though. NWN and NWN2 are completely different games with their own fanbases, and their own pool of modules (and no compatibility between the two). I'm also pretty confident that many in the NWN fanbase would not agree with NWN2 being a better version of NWN, but that's a matter of opinion.
I think this is a fair point. I'm one of those people who doesn't consider NWN2 to be a better version of NWN1. NWN2 does have full party control, which corrects NWN1's biggest and most egregious design mistake, but almost everything else about NWN2 bothers me to the point that even FPC isn't worth putting up with it. It's not even worth trying to grit my teeth and learn to deal with it for the sake of good user-made modules, because there really aren't many modules available for NWN2 anyway.

The only other things NWN2 has over the first game are improved graphics and the new menu for quick spellcasting. Graphics aren't a huge concern for me anyway, and even if the visuals are technically better, some of them actually look worse to me in terms of aesthetics. I'm thinking specifically of the spell effects; any character with some buffs on them looks absolutely ridiculous, and the new dialogue system shines a spotlight on that ridiculousness by giving you a closeup of it. The new spell menu - credit where it's due - is a tremendous improvement, but ultimately, I can live without it.
Post edited October 19, 2018 by Praetorian815
Posted October 25, 2018
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kwerboom: Thank you Captainchicken84, Bookwyrm627, Lilura, and capricorn1971ad for replying to my post. After reading through your responses and the links provided, I think I have an understanding of the situation condensed to the following points:

* First, Beamdog is a legitimate company that takes over the licenses of older Bioware games. Beamdog does do 'enhancement' work and does offer support for newer operating systems. At the same time, Beamdog does push for the removal of the original game from sale on the storefront.

* Second, much of the hate for Beamdog seems to stem from Beamdog's handling of the Baldur's Gate Series. This seems to be their first big contract and they messed it up. BG:EE had questionable content added. BGII:EE was of questionable value. BG:SoD was an unnecessary bit of fanon with tastelessly added gender politics. In general, it's best to stay away from the Beamdog versions of the Baldur's Gate Series if the originals are already in your collection.

* Third, IWD:EE and PT:EE are characteristically better Beamdog products. There are still problems/bugs with both, but they don't suffer from the same level of problematic 'enhancement' that originally earned Beamdog so much hate.

Based on what I'm seeing, Beamdog sounds like a company trying to balance both making a quick buck off the classics while providing an updated and supported product that the fan base will love. It also sounds like they don't have very good talent when it comes to that balance.

I think I will purchase NWN:EE. I already have NWN:DE in my collection and I have had issues running it. Beamdog may not be the best company, but at least having an active company supporting the product means that there is a chance that there will be more compatibility patches in the future.
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Captainchicken84: Siege of Dragonspear is fine, just try it out by yourself, there's just one transgender char who can be easily avoided, and only talks a few lines of dialogue anyway. Seems you might have fallen for the trolls and beamdog haters already....you know, it's hip to hate on beamdog now. ;)
You conveniently avoided mentioning the gaping plot-holes, the complete lack of continuity, and the exceptionally poor writing.
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kwerboom: * Second, much of the hate for Beamdog seems to stem from Beamdog's handling of the Baldur's Gate Series. This seems to be their first big contract and they messed it up. BG:EE had questionable content added. BGII:EE was of questionable value. BG:SoD was an unnecessary bit of fanon with tastelessly added gender politics. In general, it's best to stay away from the Beamdog versions of the Baldur's Gate Series if the originals are already in your collection.
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deltago: I personally agree with everything except for this point. As it stands now, the Baldur's Gate: Enhanced Editions are superior to the orginials. A lot of the bugs have been squished and the company keeps improving the game. Added kits and classes (such as the Shaman) breath new life into a game that many have already played thousands of time. The Black Pits is also an over looked gem that came with the games.

Added content is opinion based. If one does not want to play with the new companions, they can be ignored (maybe after a forced cutscene, but they still can be). A person also has to remember that they were tredding into unfamiliar territory when attempting to enhance the Baldur's Gate trilogy. Adding additional content was part of the way they thought they'd be able to sway people who already had the game to repurchase it. Once the BG1 & 2 were released, they realized that this extra content wasn't needed.

SoD is worth a play through. It's about a 7/10. Its main problem is that it suffered from a lack of scope. A lot of the characters are fantastically written (once again, my opinion) and the dungeons and encounters through out are great with AI employing better tactics. There are multiple paths to completing a majority of the quests as well. I'd say check out the Steam reviews for a better reflection of SoD as a person needs to own the game there to write one.

~
Neverwinter Nights is also Trent's baby. A lot of the work done on this game have been under the hood, however, they reached out to people still working on the old version of the game for their input on what they would like fixed. I think that is a telling sign of them taking the gaming community around this title serioously.

They do keep pushing out updates for it (more frequently than the IE games) and I personally expect that trend to continue. It is a niche game however, and they can't resort a lot of man power to it, so expect slow progress on things like graphics.

I'd be the first to tell you their PR sucks, but they do have a passion for the titles they work on. I am glad you are giving the game a chance.
You live in Edmonton don't you?
Post edited October 25, 2018 by Stig79
Posted October 25, 2018
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When you have a game with such a long lived multiplayer community like Neverwinter Nights, many of your multiplayer decisions have the potential to be viewed as political decisions.

The main beef with Beamdog over this game is in making their version report as a different version, so anyone running the last official patch version 1.69 cannot play on multiplayer servers registered to Beamdog's service, which must run NWNEE.

That was not a big deal previously, when any new patch was a free download, but when NWNEE was first offered at around 40 bucks, it divided the community between those willing to spend an A list price for a Win98 era game from those who were not.
By contrast, the unofficial 1.71 patch was completely compatible with 1.69.

It is a bit unfair to blame Beamdog for A) running a profitable company and B) providing an integrated multiplayer launcher to make finding multiplayer servers seamless, especially when the nwn community had failed to do so.

The neverrun project was an excellent alternative launcher, but was still a stand alone project which required you to have some knowledge to register your server outside of the game.

What seems a fair criticism, however, is the tendency for Beamdog to insist that their EE versions of games be bundled with the originals, which drives uo the price. That is also the decision of GOG, however.

Many in the community are upset because they see the obvious value offered to new players who can just install and log in to multiplayer and regret that those new players are now less likely to put in the effort to find much of the new and often superior content and bug fixes offered by many developers for free.

Now that it is a done deal, however, the way forward is to tweak previously developed patches to be compatible with NWN EE.
edit - It appears that some have done exactly that already. Unofficial patch 1.72 for NWN EE is available at:
neverwintervault(dot)org/project/nwn1/other/patch/community-patch-project
Post edited October 25, 2018 by Pigron
Posted October 26, 2018
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Pigron: What seems a fair criticism, however, is the tendency for Beamdog to insist that their EE versions of games be bundled with the originals, which drives uo the price. That is also the decision of GOG, however.
No it isn't. Beamdog has the veto power here. If they don't want GOG to keep them separate, GOG can't keep them separate. The only decision GOG could make would be to stop carrying the game altogether.
Posted October 27, 2018
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Pigron: What seems a fair criticism, however, is the tendency for Beamdog to insist that their EE versions of games be bundled with the originals, which drives uo the price. That is also the decision of GOG, however.
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Praetorian815: No it isn't. Beamdog has the veto power here. If they don't want GOG to keep them separate, GOG can't keep them separate. The only decision GOG could make would be to stop carrying the game altogether.
This. Spot on.
Posted November 10, 2018
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, also there was a bullshit controversy about a transgender char that speaks 4 lines of dialogue in the Siege of Dragonspear expansion.

Err yeah, I don't care to have your SJW garbage forced down my throat. That was a purposeful attempt by some pink-haired leftist freak (seriously, go find her picture) to force her LGBT agenda into a game where it has absolutely no place.


I'll never buy another Beamdog title, ever.
Posted November 12, 2018
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Pigron: What seems a fair criticism, however, is the tendency for Beamdog to insist that their EE versions of games be bundled with the originals, which drives uo the price. That is also the decision of GOG, however.
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Praetorian815: No it isn't. Beamdog has the veto power here. If they don't want GOG to keep them separate, GOG can't keep them separate. The only decision GOG could make would be to stop carrying the game altogether.
GOG already had a license to sell the game prior to Beamdog aquiring the rights to NWN. I do not know the terms of their contract with the previous owner but it seems unusual that they would be forfeit their license unless they agreed to distribute a separate game.
Whatever the terms of the license, Beamdog would need to negotiate with GOG, and whatever they agreed is what we have now.
Maybe Beamdog had a great legal team that put pressure on the poor executive at GOG who caved in spite of their principles, or maybe they have no such principles. Without seeing the distributer's license it is all just speculation.

However, a decision to continue carrying the game in spite of a supplier's conditions is still a decision.
GOG also has the say on the final price and whether or not to sell NWN EE at a discounted price as they recently have.

The point is, that Beamdog is less likely to change if the only flak they get is from players, regardless of how much or little they care about them. A little push back from the distributer can go a long way.
Posted November 18, 2018
I hate because of:
- deleting original version from marketplace
- deleting information about original authors from marketplace
- selling copied (free) mods as their own
- selling unfinished products as "enhanced"
- creating (toxic) community that censors every criticism
- * arguably, for breaking software recognitions for compatybility

* Because they use the same files and directories as original games, original one might be spotted as EE.
Post edited November 18, 2018 by Atraht
Posted November 24, 2018
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Atraht: I hate because of:
- deleting original version from marketplace
- deleting information about original authors from marketplace
- selling copied (free) mods as their own
- selling unfinished products as "enhanced"
- creating (toxic) community that censors every criticism
- * arguably, for breaking software recognitions for compatybility

* Because they use the same files and directories as original games, original one might be spotted as EE.
They begged people to upvote their products too.
Posted November 29, 2018
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Atraht: I hate because of:
- deleting original version from marketplace
- deleting information about original authors from marketplace
- selling copied (free) mods as their own
- selling unfinished products as "enhanced"
- creating (toxic) community that censors every criticism
- * arguably, for breaking software recognitions for compatybility

* Because they use the same files and directories as original games, original one might be spotted as EE.
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Stig79: They begged people to upvote their products too.
Has someone already told greedy? What about the following "DLC" ?

https://www.gog.com/game/baldurs_gate_faces_of_good_and_evil

When a friend of mine told me about it I though he was joking ... I mean ... two euros for six portraits?
It's not even about the price, I'd be embarrassed to release something like that, it should be free for who already own the game.
Posted November 29, 2018
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dmg1975: Has someone already told greedy? What about the following "DLC" ?

https://www.gog.com/game/baldurs_gate_faces_of_good_and_evil

When a friend of mine told me about it I though he was joking ... I mean ... two euros for six portraits?
It's not even about the price, I'd be embarrassed to release something like that, it should be free for who already own the game.
It's funny that they're doing that.

Only an idiot and a Beamdog shill would buy it.
Posted November 29, 2018
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dmg1975: Has someone already told greedy? What about the following "DLC" ?

https://www.gog.com/game/baldurs_gate_faces_of_good_and_evil

When a friend of mine told me about it I though he was joking ... I mean ... two euros for six portraits?
It's not even about the price, I'd be embarrassed to release something like that, it should be free for who already own the game.
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makaikishi: It's funny that they're doing that.

Only an idiot and a Beamdog shill would buy it.
According to "verified owner" reviews someone still managed to buy it ... but hey ... everyone is free to spend his money like he wants, I do not think I will ever buy a Beamdog product again, I'm still pissed off for being forced to buy BG1EE here on gog (I already own it on steam) just to get the original classic...luckily I still have the boxed edition of BG2 and I bought the diamond edition of Neverwinter Nights before it was retired from the gog store.
Post edited November 29, 2018 by dmg1975
Posted December 03, 2018
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Atraht: I hate because of:
- deleting original version from marketplace
- deleting information about original authors from marketplace
- selling copied (free) mods as their own
- selling unfinished products as "enhanced"
- creating (toxic) community that censors every criticism
- * arguably, for breaking software recognitions for compatybility

* Because they use the same files and directories as original games, original one might be spotted as EE.
I thought you were wrong on point 5, but i recently had dealings with them on the android NWN EE beta and I now know why you said that and have to agree, but really you were right on alot more than just that.

if you contact the helpdesk for NWN EE you get the helpdesk "NWN1-98" which is pretty representative of the truth, i can't see what they enhanced at all.

I wash my hands of them myself, they will receive nothing more from me.

I been enjoying more procedurally generated games these days anyways.
Post edited December 03, 2018 by capricorn1971ad
Posted December 03, 2018
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dmg1975: According to "verified owner" reviews someone still managed to buy it ... but hey ... everyone is free to spend his money like he wants, I do not think I will ever buy a Beamdog product again, I'm still pissed off for being forced to buy BG1EE here on gog (I already own it on steam) just to get the original classic...luckily I still have the boxed edition of BG2 and I bought the diamond edition of Neverwinter Nights before it was retired from the gog store.
Good thing I bought all original versions of BG1 & 2, Icewind Dale 1 & 2, PS:T and both NWN games in their original state here in GOG before Beamdog took over.

To be fair, I did eventually buy the Enhanced Editions of Icewind Dale and both BG games but after the SoD fiasco, I steered away from Beamdog.
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Neverwinter Nights seriesNWEE: What's up with the Beamdog hate?(38 posts) (38 posts) 
(38 posts)