So for you, arcane casters are completely useless because they're not as powerful as the single most powerful class? I can tell you from first-hand experience that wizards and sorcerers are perfectly playable in NWN 2 and you can easily finish the game playing one.

Sorry, but like PeterScott said, zero sympathy.

NB: I seem to recall having the exact same "discussion" about arcane casters being "nerfed to oblivion" and "useless" in NWN 2 despite all evidence to the contrary some months ago. Was that you? If so, what's the point of doing it again?


Edit: After a bit of backtracking through this forum, I found out you were the guy who claimed that just because arcane casters were less powerful than divine casters, they must be useless here. So, why are you still trying to play one? Are you a masochist, or a troll? Either way, not interested in getting into another pointless "debate" with you, so I'm out.

Your logic :
- Clerics having a lot of advantages = this is how pnp works
- Arcane spells nerfed to oblivion compared to pnp = nwn2 is a computer game, not pnp(despite being sold as a dnd crpg game)

You use 2 completely different ""logics"" in 2 different moments. Also, if you think that sorcerers are balanced in nwn2, you should think that they are OP in nwn2 with spell fixes(they aren't better than divine casters), in nwn1, in bg1, bg2, IWD1, IWD2, in pnp(...)

All evidence? PLEASE. SHOW ME ONE SITUATION THAT HAVING A SORCERER IN YOUR PARTY IS BETTER THAN HAVING A CLERIC OR A DRUID. This is what is viable IMHO. Of course, you can finish the game, relaying in divine casters and melee fighters.

In AOE spells : Divine > Arcane
In AC : Divine > Arcane
Hit dice : Divine > arcane (2x arcane hit dice to be exactly)
In summons : Divine > Arcane
In familiar: Divine > Arcane ( epic druid have a dragon while a arcane caster can have a non combat familiar)
In hit dice : Divine > Arcane
In OHK spell : Divine > Arcane (+3 on save)
Casting buffs : Divine > Arcane
Casting debuffs : Divine > Arcane
(...)

If you show me one situation that a arcane caster can be better for the party than a divine caster, then you will be right.

PS : Using your logic, in a RTS game, there are no underpowered unities, since i can use other unities to complete the game.

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EDIT. I GIVE UP!!!! A class that can't cast on armor, can't get weapon proficiency, have a half of cleric's hit dice, get worst spells(compared to pnp and nwn2 cleric spells), is perfectly balanced!!! Sorcs are overpowered in all games. NWN1, nwn2 with spell fixes, BG1, BG2, IWD1, IWD2... Is perfectly balanced to have a 'half cleric' only using other classes to do everything, even a rock that dies in one hit is viable since you can use other party members!!! Forgive me for taking a long time to understand that amazing logic!!!! And if you wanna play a dnd game with dnd rules and spells, i have no sympathy for you. How dare you are to wanna play a dnd game with dnd rules, with a class that is similar to other games and dnd!!!! You installed a mod to make a dnd game more similar to dnd? That is the ultimate HERESY. Zero sympathy for your self induced "plight". Dnd games should be different than dnd and players that uses mods to make the game more close to dnd should be arrested by this heresy!!! /sarcasm

I thought I recognized his username as recurring source of over the top complaints, but I was too lazy to check. Thanks.

What a waste of time this thread has been.

No, you showed me how a class that can't cast on armor, can't get weapon proficiency, have a half of cleric's hit dice, get worst spells(compared to pnp and nwn2 cleric spells), is perfectly balanced!! And how people that install mods to make a dnd game more similar to dnd are committing the ultimate heresy. Thanks for showing me the absolute truth. Took a very long time to understand that a class with hit dice = d2 that can only use cantrips and no armor/weapon is perfectly balanced if you can use other characters with other classes!!!

I will never commit this ultimate heresy of installing a mod to make a dnd game more similar to dnd /sarcasm

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PS : Thanks to @touched for showing me that if read the comments, i can find a way to fix it. Not only editing the behavior tab, but installing other mods like this solved the problem.
https://neverwintervault.org/project/nwn2/script/companion-and-monster-ai-22

What's funny is a quick look at your last thread complaining about this, showed someone who understood how to play sorcerers, instead of just whine about them, giving good advice about how to play them.

Will you fix the solo rogue next? Can wear platemail, can't use shields, has weak hit-points, weak weapons selection, weak BAB, can't cast any spells, and sneak attacks don't work on the undead that fill the NWN 2 OC...

Oh woe is the poor rogue...

No doubt you would fix the Rogue with a Mod to give it Fighter BAB, D12 HP, sneak attacks that work against everything, and divine spell casting (because Arcane is useless). ;)

Stay Comical...

The Rogue is exactly like pnp(not effective as a cleric against undeads). I an only installing a mod to make sorc/wiz more close to pnp. I an not installing a mod that will make a fireball spell won`t allow reflex save, SR and do D12 damage * CL. Or that will let me use heavy armor with 0% spell failure.

But if a player wanna play outside of dnd rules, i don`t see any problem. If a rogue player wanna install a mod prestige class that gives a lot of cool stuff to rogue, create a homebrew ~vampire rogue~ or a homebrew ~longbow sniper~ prestige class, i will not criticize how he plays. If i can help, i will help.

I love play with new classes like Psion and Dread Necromancer in nwn1 and IMHO nwn1 is better balanced. I not created this thread to discuss the game balance. The game is 9 year old. Overpowered, or underpowered, this will never change. I created to ask for help in a mod and got my help. I have finished the core OC one time. Wanna try with mods and other modules. That is why i created this thread

TBH the possibility of create tons of mods and modules makes NWN1/NWN2 great.

For someone who might actually be interested in fixing actually somewhat lucking partycontrol in nwn2 I would advice to use Tony K companion and monster AI. "Pause every round" and "pause and switch control" makes fights insanely more manageable and better enemy ai, which now can actually sneak and feint and like to throw control stuff makes fights more enjoyable.Played several times with it and latest Kpack - don't remember any bugs. Would advise against any merged packs - they mostly has old k-pack versions in it. And looks like a lot of bugs as well.

As for "almost everyone agrees that melee > divine > arcane in nwn2" its just plain WRONG. Power level actually look like this:
1)Cleric and Favored soul - melee selfbuffers. This two has insane power and survivability, especially FS. They easily strongest classes in game, which you actively can try to screw up. Cleric can also be pretty good offensive caster
2)Sorc and Wizards - huge damage and defence. Coupled with easily avaliable in nwn2 zero arcane spell failure shields, spells like Iron body and premonition and Arcane Scolar of Candlekeep enhance metamagic even higher. Empowered polar ray is the ONLY attack that can ONESHOT freaking red dragon in OC. Not to mention Red Wizard enhanced specialization.
3)Bard - melee selfbuffer with very powerful song feats. Song and Hymn of Requiem are pretty much game breakers
4)Druid - offensive divine caster with a bit small amount of actually good offensive spells but coupled with pet, which can be buffed to 80+ ab and pretty damn high AC.
And after all of this, on the bottom of the barrel there are simple melee guys, who would either want to get really strong items or buffs from partymembers, who are clerics/sorcs/wizards/bards. With poor barbarian at the lowest position since stat bonuses do not stuck, so once you get item bonuses equal to rage one, your rage become "make me weak" button.

I disagree with 2. Harm(tier 6 divine spell) do CL*d10 damage(and a will save to half damage who is better against the majority of enemies). While few high tier arcane spells can do d8*CL(the majority is D6). Storm of Vengeance can do up to 540 total damage and on Average will do 315 damage ( http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Storm_of_Vengeance ), also, will stun if you fail the save. An Epic Spell like Hellball can do at max 240 damage and will not stun... Implosion is the best "save of die" spell in the game.

But let's be honest here. Divine casters are better than arcane in nwn1, in bg1, in bg2, iwd1, iwd2. If you consider "prestige class", i din't played a lot with prestige arcane casters to have an opinion but seems that arcane scollar of candlekeep and Red Wizard of Thay are pretty good( i don't think that they are better than a divine caster, but seems better than a build of only core arcane caster).

I personally like the idea that if you disagree with something, you can simple put a mod. Not only people who wanna play with "pnp spells" uses this mods. Warlock eldritch blast is bugged against SR(bugged, not intentionally nerfed), so a Warlock fan can easily download a fix. If you wanna play with new classes like Dread Necromancer, you can ( https://neverwintervault.org/project/nwn2/hakpak/original-hakpak/dread-necromancer-class ), also, divine casters have mods that put Cleric Domains more close to pnp and spell fixes fixes divine spells too, like divine power ( sources https://neverwintervault.org/project/nwn2/hakpak/original-hakpak/closer-pp-domain-spell-lists and https://neverwintervault.org/project/nwn2/script/spell-fixes-and-improvements )

Complete the OC of nwn1/nwn2 with different class is a very different experience. I've finished NWN1 OC with Sorc, Druid, Cleric, then Dread Necromancer(PRC) and will try Psion(after i fix a leveling bug). Mods is what makes nwn1/nwn2 great.

You need to learn game mechanics before saying such stupid things. Harm is not the best spell. Its insanely louse spell which is maxed out at 150 points of damage. Stuff like Desintegrate and Avasculate can deliver significally more damage, while having same restrictions in turm of appliable targets.Hellball is a lameball, since vampire feast is considered 10 level spell soo its ignore all death immunities. And yeah, you are right, implosion is the best, especially since death immunity enemies are so common in OC+MotB. Best save or die spell is Flesh to stone as its not a subject to death immunity

And the main reason why arcane casters is better then divine in offence is simple - arcane has spells that lower spell resisntence. You don't have assay resistances as divine

He listed Divine casters as #1, and you disagree with mages as #2, but comparing them with #1??

Even by your twisted logic, you aren't making sense.

He disagree that divine casters are mainly buffer and not offensive casters. Which I actually mention for druid which spellbook is not very good for buffs. While I just don't understand why he is bringing up storm of vengeance for talking about FS and cleric, who lacks this spell...

Isn't Storm of Vengeance a cleric spell?

My complaint about SoV, is that it's a damage over time spell. It does 1/10th the amount he mentions for each of 10 rounds.

That means any damage reduction will apply 10 times, and you can always leave the AoE, cure during the damage, etc...

A spell that delivers all the damage at once is a lot more dangerous than one that does a little bit of damage every round for a lot of rounds.

So I wouldn't make as big of a deal about this spell as big instant damage spells.

Druid spell as far as I remember. Through I might be wrong here.

Yes, SoV isn't something I would want to use against a lot of weaker mobs. It's nice against one fat boss though

A lot of Wiz/Sorc spells are capped to caster level 15/20. Also, a Chain Lighting(cap lv 20) will not do more than 120 pts of damage(20 CL * d6, d6 = 6), a lv 12 Cleric can do the same damage as a lv 20 wizard(or a epic wizard) both using a tier 6 spell...

Because he said that arcanes are better in offensive, not in general.

I an comparing arcane and divines in general and druids are divine casters. Also, cleric tier 9 spells according to wikia

9th-levelEdit
Energy Drain: Drains 2d4 character levels from target.
Etherealness: The entire party is temporarily transported to the Ethereal Plane until one of them performs a hostile action.
Gate: Summons a devil from another plane.
Greater Visage of the Deity: You gain Charisma bonus and some elemental resistances.
Heal, Mass: As heal, but with several subjects.
Implosion: Kills most creatures nearby.
Storm of Vengeance: Storm rains acid, lightning, and hail doing 3d6 damage/round.
Summon Creature IX: Calls an appropriate creature to fight for you.
Undeath's Eternal Foe: Party is granted immunity to negative damage, level/ability drain, poisons and disease.
Source > http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Cleric_spell_list

And Druid spells ( http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Druid_spell_list ), note that some spells lke Arc of Lightning, druids learn before arcane casters.And note that Etherealnessis amazing to rebuff/heal the party while sorc don't have more his best "retreat and rebuff" spell(aka time stop)

No, sorc is pretty ok with his insanely high buffed AC, save or die spells and enhanced asoc metamagic. Need to retreat - throw quicken invisibility. Damn, invisibility even make ass out of Lorne. Don't call class weak if you don't know how to play with it

Also lumping together all divine casters is just stupid. Flavored soul and Clerics have different spell lists compared to Druid and shaman, with shaman pretty much being one of the lamest divine casters. You don't lump paladin and bard in the same heap, so please, keep it comparable