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Tiefood: I still do not understand all the hate towards it... Its the best alternative.. Would people rather have Shadowrun require microsofts own GFWL?
I doubt anyone would prefer that. Steam is probably the "best" DRM but for some people any DRM is horrible. They would much prefer DRM free, like here on GOG. Some people believe it or not never buy games with DRM on them. Everyone has their own line in the sand... mine is always online and I still have not bought Diablo 3 because of it.

Anyway, pointless conversation at this point. Some people hate Steam and DRM, they backed this game's kickstarter because it said DRM free, they feel betrayed now because the DRM free version appears to be gimped, they are venting their feelings. Simple as that. Not much to be done about it really, they will either begrudgingly use Steam or live with the limited DRM free version.
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Hilarious. Both the KS cultists, Anti-DRM cultists, and KS AND anti-DRM cultists get to see the reality of their fictional savior. Kickstarter is a preorder site for consumer goods, nothing more, nothing less.
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Tiefood: I still have not bought Diablo 3 because of it.
Yeah people will stick with what they believe I guess.. I may of not of kickstarted Shadowrun so I will probably pick it up on steam. And you are not missing anything good with Diablo 3... The only good thing I got out of it was Diablo 2 and LoD from the collectors edition..

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anjohl: Hilarious. Both the KS cultists, Anti-DRM cultists, and KS AND anti-DRM cultists get to see the reality of their fictional savior. Kickstarter is a preorder site for consumer goods, nothing more, nothing less.
Your kind of right.. Whoever thought kickstarter would be the eradicator of DRM is not thinking correctly.. But it is a good way for people's ideas to get seen.
Post edited April 14, 2013 by Tiefood
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FantasyNightmare: I wonder how much Valve was paying them...
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Pheace: I don't think you realize how much of a benefit Steamworks is to smaller developers, it's not just the premade infrastructure for mods and multiplayer but also the handling and hosting of the game and patches/DLC. It's a vast difference, one Brad Wardell from Stardock also mentioned as a big benefit of it. This is the part competing platforms should be competing on really, not just the store part.
The problem with that is that Steamworks doens't mean we get more games than we would have, because developers CAN use SW who could not release otherwise. What it actually means is that we get the SAME amount of games, but the vast majority of them will use Steamworks as a profit generating measure, not passing on the savings to the consumer.

England didn't become the ruler of the world because it was impossible to counter colonialism, it happened because it was more attractive not to.
Post edited April 14, 2013 by anjohl
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StingingVelvet: Not much to be done about it really, they will either begrudgingly use Steam or live with the limited DRM free version.
There is a third choice and the more I think about the more likely it's the one I will end up choosing...
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anjohl: Hilarious. Both the KS cultists, Anti-DRM cultists, and KS AND anti-DRM cultists get to see the reality of their fictional savior. Kickstarter is a preorder site for consumer goods, nothing more, nothing less.
With so many cultists in the premises, it might be time for some virgin or goat sacrifices! ;)

But in all honesty it shows that in some cases a publisher can be helpful. That is, a publisher can provide extra financial support when needed, for example. Of course the kickstarter craze last year largely formed because publishers weren't interested in the games the developers were pitching.

If a publisher and developer can work well together, with the publisher not negatively affecting the creative process and the developer being able to meet agreed demands, it can be a good thing.

In the long run I think some developers might still go to kickstarter. Brian Fargo, for example, seems to have burned a few bridges, but if his games are successful enough he won't need kickstarter for further projects. The same could go for other developers - kickstarting their new ventures, hopefully making it out in the black, and developing other projects with that income.

I view it as a graph with light damping. We're somewhere in that up and down region (e.g. crowdfunding spike), but over the next couple years things might stabilize. Some publishers contacted Fargo last year during Wasteland 2, and possibly other projects as well. They're interested and aware, at least of the financial aspects. I'm not sure what's the best outcome, but I have a funny feeling that most developers just might not be able to rely on crowdfunding in the long run.
Post edited April 14, 2013 by mondo84
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StingingVelvet: If MS is the one insisting on DRM I doubt they will make the Steam version DRM free. And if they do I would bet the more people talk about it the more likely it is MS will make them change it.
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Tiefood: That was a semi-joke.

Edit- How can people blame them for choosing to use steam? Steam workshop is great for many games helps people easily access mods by the click of a button.. and is not only the biggest digital distribution service available. It makes perfect sense for them to use it.. since you know... 4 million people are usually on steam every day...
The problem several people have is not that it will be available on steam; their problem is that it will be a steam exclusive product. Those would not helped funding the game if they did knew that before. What makes it worse is that the promise before was that the final product was planned to be sold DRM free.

Fans and supporters of steam will not be affected of that. But thats entirely not the point. The point is that a devteam gained X amount of $ because of a promise in their product representation that it would not have been gained if the funding partys involded knew that the devteam will make a 180° turn on that promise.
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StingingVelvet: Not much to be done about it really, they will either begrudgingly use Steam or live with the limited DRM free version.
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Gersen: There is a third choice and the more I think about the more likely it's the one I will end up choosing...
I hope you mean "not playing the game"...
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Siannah: Not at all. Again, if a dev wants to put this in the core game - great. But can a non-backer demand it to be that way? Nope. There's no entitlement for non-backers to get, part or all of, the stretch goals too with the base game.
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thelovebat: True, but backers can still demand they be in the core game for non-backers which is what you're ignoring.
I haven't seen such demands been made previously and certainly not up to a point, where you could consider this as "standard procedure" - did you?
Even if they can and do demand, that's up to the devs to decide - which is what you're ignoring. If a dev thinks they expand the core game significantly, which may or may not be the case here with an additional city, they may decide to release it as a DLC. All they have to do is, being upfront on how they'll intend to handle it.

In the end that's probably the positive side from this whole "incident", that stuff like this have to be considered and explained in future kickstarters.
Hey guys, I just got the official response from HBS concerning the DRM, Steam, and even the fact that there's no looting in the game:

Official HBS response
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StingingVelvet: Not much to be done about it really, they will either begrudgingly use Steam or live with the limited DRM free version.
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Gersen: There is a third choice and the more I think about the more likely it's the one I will end up choosing...
No, there is NOT a third choice.

One of the backers on the Shadowrun forums was rambling about the third choice for backers to get DRM free DLC. I don't believe it. You don't go on Kickstarter to back a DRM free game just to frigging pirate it afterwards.

One more reason why Harebrained Schemes has killed the Kickstarter mood.
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Vainamoinen: You don't go on Kickstarter to back a DRM free game just to frigging pirate it afterwards.
I was not talking about pirating anything...
Post edited April 14, 2013 by Gersen
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Wow, this is the saddest thread I've ever seen on this forum since I joined.

A small time dev is breathing life, not only in a world many loved and grew up with, but also in a genre that hasn't seen many good games in all. And what do they get? The spite and ignorance of a few people that obviously care more about their own little sensibilities than the success and well being of the developers.

And now they are giving away the DRM free version and the Steam version. Making sure that all those high and righteous DRM free evangelists will also sell or give away their "second copy".

The vitriol spewed in this thread is showing why people no longer want to be associated with the term "DRM free". People who care so little about small time devs shouldn't humoured by them. Luckily (and ironically) thanks to DRM the devs and publishers are finally starting to realize how little "DRM free" means in actual sale numbers.
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StingingVelvet: If MS is the one insisting on DRM I doubt they will make the Steam version DRM free. And if they do I would bet the more people talk about it the more likely it is MS will make them change it.
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Tiefood: That was a semi-joke.

Edit- How can people blame them for choosing to use steam? Steam workshop is great for many games helps people easily access mods by the click of a button.. and is not only the biggest digital distribution service available. It makes perfect sense for them to use it.. since you know... 4 million people are usually on steam every day...
Because it completely violates the basis upon which they sought funding. A lot of us thought that we were funding a DRM free game, and it's morphed into a Steam only game where you have to use Steam to make the most out of it, and it's not available at all for people that don't buy during the finite period where it's being offered DRM free.

This shitstorm would never have happened if Steam was just an option that we had, making it effectively mandatory if you want to make the most of the mods that come along and mandatory if you want to buy post-Berlin DLC is something that's got people riled up.

Personally, I want my money back, I don't back DRM only games, if they want to offer a DRM version, I'm not likely to hold it against the developers, but I refuse to back games that only have DRM versions.
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SimonG: Wow, this is the saddest thread I've ever seen on this forum since I joined.

A small time dev is breathing life, not only in a world many loved and grew up with, but also in a genre that hasn't seen many good games in all. And what do they get? The spite and ignorance of a few people that obviously care more about their own little sensibilities than the success and well being of the developers.

And now they are giving away the DRM free version and the Steam version. Making sure that all those high and righteous DRM free evangelists will also sell or give away their "second copy".

The vitriol spewed in this thread is showing why people no longer want to be associated with the term "DRM free". People who care so little about small time devs shouldn't humoured by them. Luckily (and ironically) thanks to DRM the devs and publishers are finally starting to realize how little "DRM free" means in actual sale numbers.
I hope this causes them to go out of business. They said they were developing a DRM free game and that's the basis upon which I backed the game. They've now made it DRM only if you want to make the most of the modding opportunities and people who don't buy during the limited DRM free window can't have it DRM free.

At least if they go out of business it sends a message to the rest of the developers not to fucking lie to potential backers about what the promises are. I would never have given them money had they not lied about the DRM aspect of the game. This wasn't just about me getting a DRM free game, this was about everybody having the option of buying it DRM free as well.

Honestly, I know that you're a lawyer and that lawyers have an innate lack of sensibility about these sorts of things, but ultimately they fraudulently solicited the funds. Doesn't matter whether they knew about the DRM early on or that they knew that MS could affect where the copies were sold, either way they should have disclosed that when we could get our money back.
Post edited April 14, 2013 by hedwards
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SimonG: Wow, this is the saddest thread I've ever seen on this forum since I joined.
Funny you saying that given that's exactly what you were hoping for, otherwise you wouldn't have been posting in this thread to begin with.
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hedwards: I hope this causes them to go out of business.
I don't want them to go "out of business" or anything like that, I am not even angry about all this, just sad. I was naively hopping that Kickstarter would allow to avoid this kind of issues, but apparently I was wrong.
Post edited April 14, 2013 by Gersen