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General discussion (archive)So apparantly Shadowrun Returns will only be sortof DRM free(696 posts)(696 posts)
(696 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted April 10, 2013
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Assholes.
Posted April 10, 2013
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anothername: Is this fan made content steam DRMd or do they just use steam as first port of call so to speak & stuff could appear anywhere (ex. TES-Nexus; NVN-Vault)?
I don't use Steam, so I asked some of my mates who do. They said that the only way to download a mod that is packaged through steam workshop is through steam. For some other games (eg Skyrim) modders sometimes release two versions - one through workshop, one through a site like TES-Nexus. From what I understand from Harebrained Schemes post (it's a bit vague, so I could be wrong), mods are only supported in Shadowrun Returns through the workshop, which would mean no mods unless you go through steam.
Posted April 10, 2013
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jamyskis: To be honest, the worst aspect of it is that Harebrained promised a DRM-free version, and is doing the absolute bare minimum to meet this promise now. It's a bit of a stab in the back for backers who trusted the devs to do the right thing, and Harebrained seems to be doing this only to avert demands for refunds.

The excuses surrounding the inability to mod the game in the DRM-free version is utter bullshit. Games have been modded for 20 years and more without the aid of Workshop. The DRM-free version of Dungeon Defenders can be modded without Steam workshop. Hell, even Skyrim can be modded without Workshop.

In fact, I would imagine that the community will make up for this shortfall by releasing its own mod tools for the DRM-free version.

Workshop, like so many things about Steam, is a great thing as long as it remains optional. As soon as it stops being optional, it becomes a leash and a pain in the arse.

And as for the DLC...well, that's just petty. "Use Steam or don't get the DLC." How childish.

So glad I don't back Kickstarter projects with this kind of fiasco going on.
Lets go even further than just continued DRM free support, check out this comment from the article I found quite interesting:

"Zeewolf says:

Another thing that confuses me is that the second city, which was a stretch goal for the game, is now suddenly paid DLC.

I mean, yeah, backers will get it for free. But it was my expectation that I was backing a game project with two cities, thanks to the extra funds. Not a game with one city plus DLC.

I feel making it DLC is a very liberal interpretation of their initial promise, and I don’t like it at all."

So something that the backers likely assumed would be in the game itself being a stretch goal, in fact won't be and it won't be able to be used with the DRM free version that was promised.

Is this a case of bait & switch with the stretch goal, or just betraying the backers' trust with them trusting the judgement of the developer to do the right thing?
Post edited April 10, 2013 by thelovebat
Posted April 10, 2013
Still interested even though anymore I really only buy big titles that aren't available elsewhere but on Steam (for example, Bioshock Infinite at some point). I'll probably just end up skipping the DLC, but we'll see. Or at least, I'm assuming if you buy the game DRM free, you can add your key to Steam? That would be really lame if you had to buy a separate Steam key in order to have access to the DLC, but I doubt they'd do that. And maybe the DLC won't actually have DRM. Sometimes game DLC doesn't modify the exe in any way or require any type of online activation. In the end, you may end up just being able to download the DLC files through Steam and then just copy the DLC data over to a DRM free installation and it may work. We'll have to wait and see.
Posted April 10, 2013
This feels a bit of a bait and switch. Not just the DLC, but the modding capabilities were also a part of the kickstart program.
Posted April 10, 2013
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anothername: Is this fan made content steam DRMd or do they just use steam as first port of call so to speak & stuff could appear anywhere (ex. TES-Nexus; NVN-Vault)?
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apocolypse600: I don't use Steam, so I asked some of my mates who do. They said that the only way to download a mod that is packaged through steam workshop is through steam. For some other games (eg Skyrim) modders sometimes release two versions - one through workshop, one through a site like TES-Nexus. From what I understand from Harebrained Schemes post (it's a bit vague, so I could be wrong), mods are only supported in Shadowrun Returns through the workshop, which would mean no mods unless you go through steam.
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anothername: Is this fan made content steam DRMd or do they just use steam as first port of call so to speak & stuff could appear anywhere (ex. TES-Nexus; NVN-Vault)?
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jamyskis: Steam Workshop's function is to add subscribed custom content to specified locations in the game's folder if a game is installed. That's why Valve somewhat cryptically labelled the download button "Subscribe". Basically the Steam client detects if X game is installed, and then downloads the subscribed content automatically to the right folders.

You could theoretically copy some of the mods out of the game folder again and use them in a DRM-free version, unless the DRM-free version has been artificially crippled to not allow mods (which is sounds like Shadowrun Returns has).
+Thanks for explaining.

Heavy thoughfood to consider on future crowdfunded games. Now I`m glad missed backing this.
Posted April 10, 2013
I commented on the Kickstarter and their blog that they should at least treat the DRM-free version the same way they plan to treat the mobile versions, i.e., sell it (on GOG, perhaps at a reduced price due to reduced functionality) and provide updates with the best user creations.
Posted April 10, 2013
I wonder how much Valve was paying them...
Well this is a pretty dick move & before it could get off the ground, crowd-funded games have already suffered a blow. It's definitely gonna make people think twice before kick-starting a game. Furthermore, being a backer of Star Citizen, I'm now a bit concerned they'll go back on their DRM-free stance & make Steam handle the modding & servers. Hopefully, Mr. Roberts can prove me wrong.
Well, hopefully you can still get the mods elsewhere.
Post edited April 10, 2013 by FantasyNightmare
Posted April 10, 2013
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FantasyNightmare: I wonder how much Valve was paying them...
Probably not a single cent.

Yes, the only reason a game gets on Steam is because Valve bribes them.
Posted April 10, 2013
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FantasyNightmare: I wonder how much Valve was paying them...
I don't think you realize how much of a benefit Steamworks is to smaller developers, it's not just the premade infrastructure for mods and multiplayer but also the handling and hosting of the game and patches/DLC. It's a vast difference, one Brad Wardell from Stardock also mentioned as a big benefit of it. This is the part competing platforms should be competing on really, not just the store part.
Posted April 10, 2013
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FantasyNightmare: I wonder how much Valve was paying them...
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amok: Probably not a single cent.

Yes, the only reason a game gets on Steam is because Valve bribes them.
haha, fair point. But it seems Steam has exclusivity over DRM and modding. So how will DRM-free versions be able to get any DLC or mods? Hopefully Harebrained allow DRM-free to get the DLC without having to re-buy the game on Steam.
Post edited April 10, 2013 by FantasyNightmare
Posted April 10, 2013
high rated
This is really what find irritating about Steam.

Somehow for decades PC gaming managed to support mods without needing any sort of built in framework. I can remember games like Unlimited Adventures, not to mention all the ______ Construction Set games.

But Steam wants all games to be reliant on it somehow, so they came up with Steam Workshop to try to get games that otherwise wouldn't need Steam to use it. What's worse, to try to centralize and control modding.

It's very ironic in this case, because Shadowrun is a game about a future where the world is essentially ruled by a handful of giant megacorporations that use underhanded tactics to turn people into serfs. And this is exactly that - people have to sign away their ownership rights to merely own a license to the game on Steam
Posted April 10, 2013
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FantasyNightmare: I wonder how much Valve was paying them...
Well this is a pretty dick move & before it could get off the ground, crowd-funded games have already suffered a blow. It's definitely gonna make people think twice before kick-starting a game. Furthermore, being a backer of Star Citizen, I'm now a bit concerned they'll go back on their DRM-free stance & make Steam handle the modding & servers. Hopefully, Mr. Roberts can prove me wrong.
Ask them on their KS or blog or whatever they use. Ill make sure i ask any KS devs on any KS projects i back - i mean in terms of confirm DRM free etc
Post edited April 10, 2013 by nijuu
Posted April 10, 2013
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FantasyNightmare: So how will DRM-free versions be able to get any DRM?
I know it's a typo, but thank you for the laugh :)
Posted April 10, 2013
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FantasyNightmare: I wonder how much Valve was paying them...
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Pheace: I don't think you realize how much of a benefit Steamworks is to smaller developers, it's not just the premade infrastructure for mods and multiplayer but also the handling and hosting of the game and patches/DLC. It's a vast difference, one Brad Wardell from Stardock also mentioned as a big benefit of it. This is the part competing platforms should be competing on really, not just the store part.
Not being a developer, you're absolutely right, I don't. I guess it would be helpful, seeing as Valve has all this infrastructure AND the biggest consumer base. But I feel it's a bit of an oversight on their part, not factoring this into account. Like I've iterated, I hope that at least the modders will host their creations on sites like ModDB and their ilk.
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Community
General discussion (archive)So apparantly Shadowrun Returns will only be sortof DRM free(696 posts)(696 posts)
(696 posts)