It seems that you're using an outdated browser. Some things may not work as they should (or don't work at all).
We suggest you upgrade newer and better browser like: Chrome, Firefox, Internet Explorer or Opera

×
avatar
hedwards: They didn't imply that there would be a DRM free version available of the game and all the DLC, they stated it pretty succinctly in their FAQ that it would be the case.
avatar
ET3D: Stating things succinctly is a good way to leaving them open to interpretation. :) "For PC/Mac/Linux, the game will be available DRM-free from our website" can have the interpretation of "for backers", and still be left true. The DRM-free download is fully featured, contains all the content which was promised as part of the Kickstarter, the editor and the ability to share user-created content. So Hairbrained is giving away what it promised.
Wrong, DRM free games they promised should be for everyone not only backers.
Sooo they cut down one of the stretch goals to sell it as a dlc? Well... Thats sad... I though the point was that everything in the stretch goals would be added for EVERYONE no mater what when you buy the copy of the game.
Let's summarize - the game has a sorry excuse for a DRM-free version with arbitrarily limited functionality, no manual saving and no loot system.
Well... I was genuinely looking forward to it, but it's beginning to sound like a simple tablet game by the minute...
avatar
yinan: HBS should have told people that negotiations were ongoing, upfront. We would likely have backed anyway (out of love for Shadowrun and trust for the guys who created it), but would not feel misinformed. Personally, I am not mad with them, but I am quite disappointed.
This was on the original page wasn't it? That sounds like it mostly covers that?

"While the details are still being worked out, we hate draconian DRM as much as the next guy. We expect there will be an account system but it would be primarily used to enable the social elements of the game like mission and character sharing--not to restrict access to the game itself."
avatar
yinan: HBS should have told people that negotiations were ongoing, upfront. We would likely have backed anyway (out of love for Shadowrun and trust for the guys who created it), but would not feel misinformed. Personally, I am not mad with them, but I am quite disappointed.
avatar
Pheace: This was on the original page wasn't it? That sounds like it mostly covers that?

"While the details are still being worked out, we hate draconian DRM as much as the next guy. We expect there will be an account system but it would be primarily used to enable the social elements of the game like mission and character sharing--not to restrict access to the game itself."
I add the date:Last updated: Monday Apr 23, 6:38pm EDT..

The kickstarter Launched: Apr 4, 2012 and Funding ended: Apr 29, 2012

And the one statement I bold not same with purchase future shadowrun returns DLC content availability they state in last update
Post edited April 13, 2013 by yinan
I'm going to make myself unpopular and state that I really don't see the issue here.
avatar
Neobr10: People just love to moan.
I could do with some moaning; I'm a little lonely right now. Where might I find these people? Maybe there's a number to call, or something?
avatar
Pheace: This was on the original page wasn't it? That sounds like it mostly covers that?

"While the details are still being worked out, we hate draconian DRM as much as the next guy. We expect there will be an account system but it would be primarily used to enable the social elements of the game like mission and character sharing--not to restrict access to the game itself."
Interesting.

For what it's worth hardly anyone considers Steam DRM "draconian." As has been said a million times most people actually prefer Steam DRM to DRM-free.
avatar
Kaldurenik: Sooo they cut down one of the stretch goals to sell it as a dlc? Well... Thats sad... I though the point was that everything in the stretch goals would be added for EVERYONE no mater what when you buy the copy of the game.
They didn't cut down a stretch goal. The additional city is available to backers DRM-free.
Stretch goal does not mean "part of the full game for everyone". You can't expect additional content free for you, because OTHERS but money down.
avatar
yinan: This +100
I will never ever back a single project again even for the CD Projekt RED developer

source : http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1613260297/shadowrun-returns/posts/453037#comments
Aww... Hopefully you will reconsider this some time along the road. More discerning, more selective, less trusting - all this is good. But kickstarters overall are a very, very good thing - community-backed projects showing that people do indeed care (at least some, who are not treating KS as glorified pre-order site). Don't just lose faith in them. :)

@ Pheace

It's a bit more complicated than that, the overall wording of HBS posts consistently suggested DRM-free as main venue and one of the major selling points. "By the fans, with the fans, for the fans" sort of thing. The videos, the whole context bought into the hype first created by inXile's Wasteland 2.

Yes, maybe we DRM-concerned backers should have been more discerning and demand clearer explanations. This is a lesson for the future - maybe some lawyers among the gaming crowd will eventually create a matrix of questions to give some sort of "trust in DRM-free project" backer trust badge for Kickstarter...
avatar
Kaldurenik: Sooo they cut down one of the stretch goals to sell it as a dlc? Well... Thats sad... I though the point was that everything in the stretch goals would be added for EVERYONE no mater what when you buy the copy of the game.
avatar
Siannah: They didn't cut down a stretch goal. The additional city is available to backers DRM-free.
Stretch goal does not mean "part of the full game for everyone". You can't expect additional content free for you, because OTHERS but money down.
Apologies, but it's not that clear cut. That is exactly why a lot of folk pledge for those stretch goals - in order to put features INTO the kickstarted project (for everyone). Multiple projects like M.O.R.E, Eternity and Banner Saga made it quite clear which things are "backer only" vs. "in the main game". By their (HBS) posts, Berlin was expected to be part of the main game.

And that is why in the future, people will be nit-picking more to have clarity on whether the stretch goal effects will be included for all gamers.
Post edited April 13, 2013 by gkoczyk
high rated
avatar
hedwards: They didn't imply that there would be a DRM free version available of the game and all the DLC, they stated it pretty succinctly in their FAQ that it would be the case.
avatar
ET3D: Stating things succinctly is a good way to leaving them open to interpretation. :) "For PC/Mac/Linux, the game will be available DRM-free from our website" can have the interpretation of "for backers", and still be left true. The DRM-free download is fully featured, contains all the content which was promised as part of the Kickstarter, the editor and the ability to share user-created content. So Hairbrained is giving away what it promised.
Wrong. Their FAQ states (emphasis mine):
How will the game be distributed when it's released to the public? What about DRM-free?
For mobile tablets, Shadowrun Returns will be available via iTunes, Android Marketplace, and the Amazon Android marketplace. For PC/Mac/Linux, the game will be available DRM-free from our website."
You have to go out of your way to juggle words to interpret it in any way that does not include making DRM-free version public, which, incidentally, is what we have now. That, and the fact that DRM-free version is going to be obsolete for modding once the first post-Berlin DLC comes out, gives backers - myself included - ample reasons to feel angry.

I've never had any prior experience with Shadowrun, I've backed it on a principle alone. Is it a tactical RPG, is it DRM-free, is it available on multiple platforms? Awesome, we need more things like this - that's what I thought. If all I wanted was just a game, I would have bought it when (or if) it came out, but I was buying an idea, which turned out differently than what was advertised.

The worst thing is that it sets a precedent and harms other developers. You know someone goofed up hard when the rest of the Kickstarters start putting disclamers that they won't pull Harebrained on their backers.
Post edited April 13, 2013 by nevill
This is why I don't take part into Kickstarters.

avatar
hedwards: They didn't imply that there would be a DRM free version available of the game and all the DLC, they stated it pretty succinctly in their FAQ that it would be the case.
avatar
ET3D: Stating things succinctly is a good way to leaving them open to interpretation. :) "For PC/Mac/Linux, the game will be available DRM-free from our website" can have the interpretation of "for backers", and still be left true. The DRM-free download is fully featured, contains all the content which was promised as part of the Kickstarter, the editor and the ability to share user-created content. So Hairbrained is giving away what it promised.
If the DRM-free version can't use future official DLC (= expansion packs), to me that sounds similar to as if future bug fixes would appear only for the Steam version, not the DRM-free version. You could still claim they kept their promise by releasing also a DRM-free version, even if it was going to be left unpatched.
Post edited April 13, 2013 by timppu
avatar
Siannah: They didn't cut down a stretch goal. The additional city is available to backers DRM-free.
Stretch goal does not mean "part of the full game for everyone". You can't expect additional content free for you, because OTHERS but money down.
avatar
gkoczyk: Apologies, but it's not that clear cut. That is exactly why a lot of folk pledge for those stretch goals - in order to put features INTO the kickstarted project (for everyone). Multiple projects like M.O.R.E, Eternity and Banner Saga made it quite clear which things are "backer only" vs. "in the main game". By their (HBS) posts, Berlin was expected to be part of the main game.

And that is why in the future, people will be nit-picking more to have clarity on whether the stretch goal effects will be included for all gamers.
Oh it's quite clear. When I put money down for a game, I do it for me, myself and I. If I put more money down because I want a certain stretch goal to be reached, I do it because I want it. But certainly not because I want this content being available for someone else, which may not even have pledged in the first place.
This applies even more so, as a lot claimed kickstarter to being a glorified pre-order. Unlocking additional content / features / goodies for ALL was only recently introduced by *insert drum roll* the very same Steam that's get criticized here - the irony is thick as a brick wall you just ran into.

Yes HBS made mistakes here, it could and should have been clearer from the get-go, which wasn't possible or they neglected to communicate for whatever reason. And I do hope they get to the point where they offer a refund for guys like hedwards and others, who feel let down by this.

But the attitude shown here by non-backers demanding it all free of charge for themselves too, where they couldn't be bothered to support the kickstarter, is beyond mind boggling hilarious. It's great when devs use stretch goals to improve the game for all, but that's certainly NOT what a non-backer can or should expect.
Yes, and I also find it slightly ammusing and annoying that there are people in this thread that had nothing to do with backing this project, trying to tell those that did how to feel about it. If you are one of those people, do us all a favor and fuck off.
avatar
Siannah: Oh it's quite clear. When I put money down for a game, I do it for me, myself and I. If I put more money down because I want a certain stretch goal to be reached, I do it because I want it. But certainly not because I want this content being available for someone else, which may not even have pledged in the first place.
This applies even more so, as a lot claimed kickstarter to being a glorified pre-order. Unlocking additional content / features / goodies for ALL was only recently introduced by *insert drum roll* the very same Steam that's get criticized here - the irony is thick as a brick wall you just ran into.
Apologies, if I wasn't clear. I think the problem is that gating content aggravates (at least some) backers - exactly those who do not treat KS as glorified pre-order.

I do not expect others to pay for me at all. It's that I (and I think at least some other older chaps) were pledging towards something common rather than just for me, mine and myself. Berlin was presented as part of that ("help us make the dream bigger").

I put it down towards product available for a certain community, for a game I fell in love with quite a long time ago. That was the pitch HBS made and it lodged hook, line and sinker. :) I pledged and would have done so even if I personally didn't get jack from that "investment" (ie. no personal copy of the game). That was the icing on this proverbial cake, not cake itself.
Post edited April 13, 2013 by gkoczyk