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Any backers who received their account information know by now that the editor is included in the DRM free version. Which means that the Workshop and other Steam features are not essential.

Making this whole tantrum even more silly.
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amok: I was just responding to your example that HS have Dungeons Defenders and DLC's... when they don't... They have a complete DD pack. AFAIK HS do not sell any DLC's at all... do they?
They did offer DLC as part of the Humble THQ Bundle, but it was only a Steam code. So far, no DLC has been released as a seperate purchase, but that doesn't mean it will never be released. Note that no Humble Bundle contained an Android game until January 31st of last year, and there weren't any Windows-only Bundles until that November either. Humble Bundle has so far proven willing to bend their own rules for special occasions (assuming there even is a rule, rather than that there simply hasn't been any developer that released lone DLC yet), so I'm sure they'd be willing to accommodate Harebrained.

I mean think about it; up until this year, GoG didn't support separate DLC either. And now there's Omerta.
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SimonG: Any backers who received their account information know by now that the editor is included in the DRM free version. Which means that the Workshop and other Steam features are not essential.

Making this whole tantrum even more silly.
Not entirely. As VanishedOne pointed out, the Berlin DLC will come with new resources for mod developers to use in their maps. If Harebrained should decide to release future expansion cities beyond Berlin (and it isn't impossible), they've already declared that they will not get a DRM-free release. Berlin will be the last DRM-free expansion any of us will see (beyond patches, if those count).

So if those future releases also come out with mod resources, mod devs who don't use Steam are locked out. They get no access to those resources in a DRM-free form.
Post edited April 12, 2013 by Decivre
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amok: I was just responding to your example that HS have Dungeons Defenders and DLC's... when they don't... They have a complete DD pack. AFAIK HS do not sell any DLC's at all... do they?
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Decivre: They did offer DLC as part of the Humble THQ Bundle, but it was only a Steam code. So far, no DLC has been released as a seperate purchase, but that doesn't mean it will never be released. Note that no Humble Bundle contained an Android game until January 31st of last year, and there weren't any Windows-only Bundles until that November either. Humble Bundle has so far proven willing to bend their own rules for special occasions (assuming there even is a rule, rather than that there simply hasn't been any developer that released lone DLC yet), so I'm sure they'd be willing to accommodate Harebrained.

I mean think about it; up until this year, GoG didn't support separate DLC either. And now there's Omerta.
I just mean - you can not use something which may happen as an example :)
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amok: I just mean - you can not use something which may happen as an example :)
I disagree. The Humble Bundle has shown to be very flexible about how they release, and what they cater to. I remember there was a huge stink last year about the Humble THQ Bundle, because it went against the "Humble Indie Bundle" mindset... THQ was anything but Indie, and that bundle was in no way DRM-free.

So keep an open mind. I think they'd be more than willing to accommodate.
Post edited April 12, 2013 by Decivre
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amok: I just mean - you can not use something which may happen as an example :)
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Decivre: I disagree. The Humble Bundle has shown to be very flexible about how they release, and what they cater to. I remember there was a huge stink last year about the Humble THQ Bundle, because it went against the "Humble Indie Bundle" mindset... THQ was anything but Indie, and that bundle was in no way DRM-free.

So keep an open mind. I think they'd be more than willing to accommodate.
that kind of makes things difficult, as all possible scenarios can be imagined - point being, I do not feel it is right to say that HS should be used as an example of a place where the DLC can be distributed, because there are games which may have DLC's distributed through it at some point in the future. The examples you used do not exist (yet)... HS do not at present time distribute DLC's, nor is there any indication that they are going to do so.

Is is possible that they will do so at some point in the future? Off course there is. It is also possible that some point in the future HS will only provide Steam keys for all purchases...

Is there maybe a reason why HS do not provide DLC's? probably. Can they be solved? Probably. Can all games in the world be distributed DRM free? Probably. Should we abolish wars and have equality between all men on earth? Probably. Idealism is good, can not really be used as examples in an argument.

(also, AFAIK HS do not sell Dungeon Defenders, there is only one build up there for those who got the bundle. This means that if there are any future DLC's (though I do not think so, I think the game has run it's course) it is not certain whether it will be given to them as it will require a completely new package in the current system)
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amok: that kind of makes things difficult, as all possible scenarios can be imagined - point being, I do not feel it is right to say that HS should be used as an example of a place where the DLC can be distributed, because there are games which may have DLC's distributed through it at some point in the future. The examples you used do not exist (yet)... HS do not at present time distribute DLC's, nor is there any indication that they are going to do so.

Is is possible that they will do so at some point in the future? Off course there is. It is also possible that some point in the future HS will only provide Steam keys for all purchases...
Yes, but we're talking about whether or not it is a possibility or impossibility. A year ago, people would have told you that Humble Bundle will never ever ever sell a DRM'd product or a non-indie title... they proved that wrong last November. At that same moment, most people would have told you they sell games, not ebooks or music (by itself). Yet they have done just that at some point.

We aren't talking about things that are far beyond plausibility here. A DRM-free DLC product is, in essence, the same as a DRM-free game... it's an install file. And Humble Bundle sells install files, ebooks and soundtracks at this point. I'm asking you to imagine that a DRM-free videogame storefront could start selling DRM-free DLC, not to imagine that GoG will suddenly become a postmodernist store catering to horse buggies and baby cannibalism products.

Not all imagined scenarios are equal to each other.
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amok: Is there maybe a reason why HS do not provide DLC's? probably. Can they be solved? Probably. Can all games in the world be distributed DRM free? Probably. Should we abolish wars and have equality between all men on earth? Probably. Idealism is good, can not really be used as examples in an argument.

(also, AFAIK HS do not sell Dungeon Defenders, there is only one build up there for those who got the bundle. This means that if there are any future DLC's (though I do not think so, I think the game has run it's course) it is not certain whether it will be given to them as it will require a completely new package in the current system)
I imagine that HS doesn't provide DLC because no one has sold DLC through it. I think that's the only reason it doesn't. I don't see any clues or claims in any interviews or even the FAQ that would lead us to believe anything beyond that.
Post edited April 12, 2013 by Decivre
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Decivre: snip
This is getting a little silly and not part of this discussion, really.

The conversation is as follows:

- "They could do it through HS. just look at Dungeon Defenders, they have DLC's there"
- "No they don't"
- "but they could have had if HS had a system for DLC's".....

it is pointless. I was just saying you had a wrong choice of example. It is fine, just use a fitting example which do provide DLC's. No one who might have had, or could have had, if.... The rest is just guess work, where your guess is just as good as mine.

I do not say that HS can not provide DLC's, or should not provide DLC's - I am saying "they do not provide DLC's". You can not make a business model based on "what if", not matter how plausible they are. You need to deal with the reality of here and now.
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Decivre: I imagine that HS doesn't provide DLC because no one has sold DLC through it.
Wut?
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Decivre: I imagine that HS doesn't provide DLC because no one has sold DLC through it.
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JMich: Wut?
Thank you, there is an example of DLC
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SimonG: Any backers who received their account information know by now that the editor is included in the DRM free version. Which means that the Workshop and other Steam features are not essential.

Making this whole tantrum even more silly.
The point is that they apparently lied to us about the status of the DRM free version and a lot of the modules are going to wind up being Steam only.

What's more, for those of us that don't yet have account information, how would we know? AFAICT I won't be getting that until the game is launched as I don't see any emails about it nor do I see that I have beta or alpha access on my pledge.

I'll probably complain to KS about this and see if I can get my money back, I would never have pledged for a copy that was so crippled.
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SimonG: Any backers who received their account information know by now that the editor is included in the DRM free version. Which means that the Workshop and other Steam features are not essential.

Making this whole tantrum even more silly.
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hedwards: The point is that they apparently lied to us about the status of the DRM free version and a lot of the modules are going to wind up being Steam only.

What's more, for those of us that don't yet have account information, how would we know? AFAICT I won't be getting that until the game is launched as I don't see any emails about it nor do I see that I have beta or alpha access on my pledge.

I'll probably complain to KS about this and see if I can get my money back, I would never have pledged for a copy that was so crippled.
I think SimonG's argument so far have been that the backers get exactly what was promised to them. The DLC's promised to the backers are given to them DRM free...

Account based system was mentioned as part of the social features and mods - and this is exactly what Steam is if they do not make use of the CEG component. There is nothing here not part of the original project.

edit - and it seems also that it is not even needed to have Workshop integration for mods.
Post edited April 12, 2013 by amok
Hot damn a Shadowrun game that isn't a crappy FPS!

DRM be damned, this baby is an insta-buy for me.
Post edited April 12, 2013 by Cormoran
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apocolypse600: TLDR: Game will be drm free, but mods and all future DLC will require steam.

What do people think of this?
Steamcrap for the mods ? They can keep their game .
Good move. I imagine it will increase sales.
Did anyone notice the note from InXile on their Kickstarter page?

For both Torment and Wasteland 2, we're not using Steamworks and you won't be forced to use any single retailer option to access any part of the game or be able to use modding. We'll put the game on retailers that use DRM, like Steam or Origin, sure, because our backers can decide for themselves if they prefer that option, and we're agnostic to where you get the game.