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dmg1975: Since we are talking about bad habits what do you think of this: (just an example)

"The Bard’s Tale Trilogy currently contains The Bard’s Tale and The Bard’s Tale II: The Destiny Knight. In early 2019, The Bard’s Tale III: Thief of Fate, will be added into the collection free of charge!"
Are you finished with the first and second game yet?
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Dartpaw86: I was merely asking about how the practice works, rather than complaining about it.
I think the 'how it works' part really varies from one developer to the next. Some go InDev when a game is purt-near done, while others are nowhere close and take several years to get released. At least one has been pulled from InDev and will likely not show up here (was a vehicle combat game, forget the name). Some have seen a hefty price bump when they got close to release. Some are very responsive to the early-support community, and some others rarely put out updates or news.

Crapshoot-wise, it's a bit better than a preorder since the customer does get a chance to try the game and obtain a refund within a 14-day period.
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Dartpaw86: I was merely asking about how the practice works, rather than complaining about it.
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HereForTheBeer: I think the 'how it works' part really varies from one developer to the next. Some go InDev when a game is purt-near done, while others are nowhere close and take several years to get released. At least one has been pulled from InDev and will likely not show up here (was a vehicle combat game, forget the name). Some have seen a hefty price bump when they got close to release. Some are very responsive to the early-support community, and some others rarely put out updates or news.

Crapshoot-wise, it's a bit better than a preorder since the customer does get a chance to try the game and obtain a refund within a 14-day period.
Thank you :) that sounds pretty reasonable
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amok: in-dev meand "in developmet", this means the games are not complete yet, so yes - it is released unfinished... it is kind of the whole point of "in-dev"...
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Dartpaw86: Exactly what I meant by "admittingly" in-dev are still releasing unfinished games at full price. They're just more honest about it.
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dmg1975: Since we are talking about bad habits what do you think of this: (just an example)

"The Bard’s Tale Trilogy currently contains The Bard’s Tale and The Bard’s Tale II: The Destiny Knight. In early 2019, The Bard’s Tale III: Thief of Fate, will be added into the collection free of charge!"

lol, it almost seems they are doing me a favour by adding the third game in the collection "free of charge", pity that the product I bought it's called "The Bard’s Tale Trilogy" ... granted I was the idiot here because when I bought it (btw on day one so only one game was included) I didn't read the description carefully. Anyway they are not even selling unfinished games ... they are selling games they have yet to develop as finished products... a sort of "reverse" kickstart campaign?

Back on topic I still can't believe that ... uhm ... let's say 25 years ago you could go at your favourite gaming store to buy a game and play it from start to finish (ok with some exception ... but they were ...exceptions) without any update patch or whatever, ok they were different times, pc hardware were simpler so development was somewhat simpler but ..... sorry, just a rant ... maybe a bit ot.
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Dartpaw86: The first game upon release was completely finished (aside from adding a few touchups later on) and when the second game was released, it was completely finished. As will the third game. So can I really say I got an unfinished game?

It's more like "pre-ordering" if anything.
I was not saying they were unfinished games my point was that selling games that you have yet to develop bundled with others you have finished it's a bad habit that is becoming increasingly common (as selling incomplete games), instead of selling all three games in one bundle they should have sold them separately as soon as they were been completed and usually it's clearly stated if you are pre-ordering something and this was not the case.
Post edited January 08, 2019 by dmg1975
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dmg1975: Since we are talking about bad habits what do you think of this: (just an example)

"The Bard’s Tale Trilogy currently contains The Bard’s Tale and The Bard’s Tale II: The Destiny Knight. In early 2019, The Bard’s Tale III: Thief of Fate, will be added into the collection free of charge!"
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toxicTom: Are you finished with the first and second game yet?
The "just an example" you quoted should be a sufficient answer.
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dmg1975: Back on topic I still can't believe that ... uhm ... let's say 25 years ago you could go at your favourite gaming store to buy a game and play it from start to finish (ok with some exception ... but they were ...exceptions) without any update patch or whatever, ok they were different times, pc hardware were simpler so development was somewhat simpler but ..... sorry, just a rant ... maybe a bit ot.
25 years ago, Windows was getting an extensive backward-incompatible revamp every couple of years and getting games that were less than 2 years old to work was a cr*p shoot. It didn't help that the games were taking crazy shortcuts to work their magic on hardware that was very limited.

Also, sound cards were worse than graphics cards nowadays and it wasn't uncommon to be able to get the game to run, but not the sound. I found out how some of the classics I played as a teenager sounded like... years later.

As a non-technical user at the time, I can attest that getting things to work was incredibly frustrating for the layman.

Also, there were many games that were a buggy mess (thankfully, I didn't play the vast majority of those, because I read Gamespot reviews before buying... well, technically, Gamespot is 22 years old and 3 years before that, I was getting my games for free on floppies, I didn't have any money then), it's just that most of those games didn't pass the time filter and the games you see nowadays from that era are the gems.

Also, if you bought shareware at the time, you technically were paying what was essentially the demo of a game. Granted, it was cheap, but still...

Don't get me wrong, I have fond memories of the good old days, but I also like to keep it real.
Post edited January 09, 2019 by Magnitus
Why pay testers when you can get testers to pay you. Plus your target audience tells you what they want so they know what to develop for their DLC. It's a great marketing strategy, and there's more than a few people who want to be first.
Nothing wrong with Indie games. Its up to the buyer to not be a big dummy and do some research first before buying. Asset flips, frauds and scams are easy to spot.
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ZyloxDragon: Why pay testers when you can get testers to pay you. Plus your target audience tells you what they want so they know what to develop for their DLC. It's a great marketing strategy, and there's more than a few people who want to be first.
As a marketing strategy it can backfire. If the first testers that pay (buyers) don't find the quality sufficient, they might downrate and badmouth the game, especially since there weren't paid but paid for it.

Indies don't exactly sell like hot cakes and I have heard from quite a number of Indie developers making losses with their games. And if low quality becomes a trade mark of Indie games it could even hurt the good Indie games too.

From a development perspective it kind of makes sense to involve customers in the development process but one should be clear about it (still in beta or something) otherwise it might backfire.
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dmg1975: ... my point was that selling games that you have yet to develop ...
If it is stated clearly customers can avoid this situation very easily. If it is not stated clearly, it's kind of fraud.
Post edited January 09, 2019 by Trilarion
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Dartpaw86: Are they using the gamers as beta-testers?
Yes. Of course. Like the big studios do and like Microsoft has been doing with their OS since the release of Win95.

And you only found out about this strategy now? Where have you been living?
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Magnitus: 25 years ago, Windows was getting an extensive backward-incompatible revamp every couple of years and getting games that were less than 2 years old to work was a cr*p shoot. It didn't help that the games were taking crazy shortcuts to work their magic on hardware that was very limited.

Also, sound cards were worse than graphics cards nowadays and it wasn't uncommon to be able to get the game to run, but not the sound. I found out how some of the classics I played as a teenager sounded like... years later.

As a non-technical user at the time, I can attest that getting things to work was incredibly frustrating for the layman.

Also, there were many games that were a buggy mess (thankfully, I didn't play the vast majority of those, because I read Gamespot reviews before buying... well, technically, Gamespot is 22 years old and 3 years before that, I was getting my games for free on floppies, I didn't have any money then), it's just that most of those games didn't pass the time filter and the games you see nowadays from that era are the gems.

Also, if you bought shareware at the time, you technically were paying what was essentially the demo of a game. Granted, it was cheap, but still...

Don't get me wrong, I have fond memories of the good old days, but I also like to keep it real.
If i would be picky I could say that 25 years ago Windows 95 was yet to be released ok there was Windows 3.1 but that was an application like any other, my post was referring to the first half of the 90's ... yeah ok that was almost thirty years ago ... no need to remind me :)
I tend to agree with the rest of your post, after the release of Windows 95 older games were sometimes difficult to run properly, they were already buggy? Maybe, but much blame was put on the newly released operating system and not the game itself, and for a good reason I might add.

But yeah, sometimes I tend to be carried away when speaking of the good old times so my judgment may not be completely objective:)