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General discussionUkrainian Civil War in progress?(1767 posts) (1767 posts) 
(1767 posts) 
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This is my favourite topic
Posted March 01, 2014
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Titanium: That's news to me. Especially considering how US can dish out seven times more money for it's armed forces that Russia. And both set aside about the same procent of GDP for that purpose.
Yeah our economic woes are grossly exaggerated in regards to world power. We have leaders that refuse to tighten the purse strings to lower debt, but that doesn't mean we don't have an ungodly high GDP and a massive work and consumer force.
Posted March 01, 2014
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summitus: Russians will be the death of us all eventually , sadly its only their leaders that are paranoid warmongers , I'm sure most Russian people have no say in what Putin and his cronies get up to.
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Sorapak: actually not russians,but all the powermongering people. Be it Russian European American or whatever.

Unfortunately,humanity IS doomed. That's my impression from everything I see.
Yes its all a bit sad , its hard to believe its 2014 and we are all governed by small minded , short sighted greedy and corrupt people :(
Posted March 01, 2014
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ktchong: The irony is: the US won the Cold War in the last round because of the might of the US economy. However, now Russian economy is in a much better shape than the US because of all the oil and gas, and the US is on the brink of bankruptcy. So Russia may actually win the second round. LOL.
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Titanium: That's news to me. Especially considering how US can dish out seven times more money for it's armed forces that Russia. And both set aside about the same procent of GDP for that purpose.
I think that US does not have the money for another cold war anymore. Afterall it is now only financed by China owning over 60% of us treasury bonds. And US army is now being reduced.
Post edited March 01, 2014 by Matruchus
Posted March 01, 2014
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Sorapak: actually not russians,but all the powermongering people. Be it Russian European American or whatever.

Unfortunately,humanity IS doomed. That's my impression from everything I see.
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summitus: Yes its all a bit sad , its hard to believe its 2014 and we are all governed by small minded , short sighted greedy and corrupt people :(
I thought that mostly these things were happening here locally (embezzledment,power mongering even if it means starving a whole nation(25% Of Greek people are officially living below poverty range).
But then I saw Ukraine,and some other incidents here and there
logical conclusion,humanity is a failure.

Give the man power if you want to see what he truly is.
Posted March 01, 2014
I'll play devi... Yanukovich's advocate (for one post only).
He might not be the best president there is (I agree, he is not), but he was elected president. If you think he's a crook, a tyrant or whatever, just declare impeachment on him ([url=http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/europe/9905/14/russia.yeltsin.01/index.html?_s=PM:WORLD]that's what we did... well, tried anyway[/url]). Let his case be examined by court, and if he is found guilty, remove him from his position. A more lengthy procedure, true, bur less... messy. This is not Libya, you didn't have to do things the hard way.
Instead there was a coup, some (alleged) attempts on his life. Right after a ceasefire was declared and both sides seemed to agree to stop the violence. So he flees to Russia and asks for help. Does Putin want to start another conflict? I don't know, I'm not him, after all, but I highly doubt it. Yet he has to react in some way. I know (well, I read) he consulted A. Merkel and D. Cameron on the situation in Ukraine, but I do not know what agreement, if any, they reached. So, well, here we are.

The situation in Crimea is another matter, though. I have my thoughts regarding it but I'd rather wait and see how it plays out in the end. The only thing I'll say is that I don't like it.
Post edited March 01, 2014 by Sanjuro
Posted March 01, 2014
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Sanjuro: I'll play devi... Yanukovich's advocate (for one post only).
He might not be the best president there is (I agree, he is not), but he was elected president. If you think he's a crook, a tyrant or whatever, just declare impeachment on him ([url=http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/europe/9905/14/russia.yeltsin.01/index.html?_s=PM:WORLD]that's what we did... well, tried anyway[/url]). Let his case be examined by court, and if he is found guilty, remove him from his position. A more lengthy procedure, true, bur less... messy. This is not Libya, you didn't have to do things the hard way.
Instead there was a coup, some (alleged) attempts on his life. Right after a ceasefire was declared and both sides seemed to agree to stop the violence. So he flees to Russia and asks for help. Does Putin want to start another conflict? I don't know, I'm not him, after all, but I highly doubt it. Yet he has to react in some way. I know (well, I read) he consulted A. Merkel and D. Cameron on the situation in Ukraine, but I do not know what agreement, if any, they reached. So, well, here we are.

The situation in Crimea is another matter, though. I have my thoughts regarding it but I'd rather wait and see how it plays out in the end. The only thing I'll say is that I don't like it.
Impeachment wouldn't go through. Parliament as it was and still is - a bunch of corrupt $ucks, who were afraid of ruling party or plainly getting money for a satisfactory vote choice.

I wasn't for protests myself (though I shared their despise for government), but I was always against deaths and violence. People who died were not in guilt and mostly armed with sticks and shields. They went not for politics who just claimed power, but for their dignity. If they had decent jobs, fair and unbiased courts, they wouldn't in their lives go willingly to a death row. It wasn't about langauge or EU for them anymore.

Did you know, that more than 95% of courts are won by prosecution side? If you get charged, you have almost zero chance to be proven not guilty. This is Ukraine.
Post edited March 01, 2014 by AzureKite
Posted March 01, 2014
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AzureKite: Impeachment wouldn't go through. Parliament as it was and still is - a bunch of corrupt $ucks, who were afraid of ruling party or plainly getting money for a satisfactory vote choice.
(snip)
Did you know, that more that 95% of courts are won by prosecution side? If you get charged, you have almost zero chance to be proven not guilty. This is Ukraine.
Wow, If that is really so, that sucks. Unfortunately, I have no such statistics about Russia, but I'd imagine our ratio is more balanced than 19:1.
I understand that people were desperate, we did have Yeltsin for president throughout the 90-es, and let me tell you , he was... well, now that he's dead it's not proper to speak ill of him and all, but he wasn't exactly the best ruler either. Weren't there any other options though? Hague Court or something? Violence is ultima ratio, after all, the last resort. (Yes, I know, the protesters didn't mean it that way... most of them anyway).
Post edited March 01, 2014 by Sanjuro
Posted March 01, 2014
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AzureKite: Impeachment wouldn't go through. Parliament as it was and still is - a bunch of corrupt $ucks, who were afraid of ruling party or plainly getting money for a satisfactory vote choice.
(snip)
Did you know, that more that 95% of courts are won by prosecution side? If you get charged, you have almost zero chance to be proven not guilty. This is Ukraine.
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Sanjuro: Wow, If that is really so, that sucks. Unfortunately, I have no such statistics about Russia, but I'd imagine our ratio is more balanced than 19:1.
I understand that people were desperate, we did have Yeltsin for president throughout the 90-es, and let me tell you , he was... well, now that he's dead it's not proper to speak ill of him and all, but he wasn't exactly the best ruler either. Weren't there any other options though? Hague Court or something? Violence is ultima ratio, after all, the last resort. (Yes, I know, the protesters didn't mean it that way... most of them anyway).
He is already bein sued in Haag by several Ukrainian people.

Its seems now that Russia will Annex whole eastern Ukraine by the reports from Kharkow.
Post edited March 01, 2014 by Matruchus
Posted March 01, 2014
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Matruchus: Its seems now that Russia will Annex whole eastern Ukraine by the reports from Kharkow.
The more I am reading the more I wonder how bad an outcome that would really be. The remaining Ukraine could join the EU and get what its population wants, the annexed area could become part of Russia which seems to be what most of its population wants. Maybe it would be best for everyone.

Not that global politics and State borders are really that simple.
Posted March 01, 2014
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Matruchus: Its seems now that Russia will Annex whole eastern Ukraine by the reports from Kharkow.
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StingingVelvet: The more I am reading the more I wonder how bad an outcome that would really be. The remaining Ukraine could join the EU and get what its population wants, the annexed area could become part of Russia which seems to be what most of its population wants. Maybe it would be best for everyone.

Not that global politics and State borders are really that simple.
Russia just pulled back their ambasador from US - vow really cold war again. Who would have believed that to happen a few days ago.
Post edited March 01, 2014 by Matruchus
Posted March 01, 2014
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Sanjuro: Wow, If that is really so, that sucks. Unfortunately, I have no such statistics about Russia, but I'd imagine our ratio is more balanced than 19:1.
Well, there's this, but it's only for 2011 and don't know how trustworthy it is, but statistics doesn't look good.
Posted March 01, 2014
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Matruchus: Russia just pulled back their ambasador from US - vow really cold war again. Who would have believed that to happen a few days ago.
No their parliament suggested it, but Putin would have to actually do it, which I doubt he will.
Posted March 01, 2014
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Matruchus: He is already bein sued in Haag by several Ukrainian people.

Its seems now that Russia will Annex whole eastern Ukraine by the reports from Kharkow.
What the-? No, still withholding my judgement till I get a clear picture. And that I still lack.

Is it just me or do we really have some rotten luck with Olympic games? :-\
Posted March 01, 2014
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Matruchus: Russia just pulled back their ambasador from US - vow really cold war again. Who would have believed that to happen a few days ago.
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StingingVelvet: No their parliament suggested it, but Putin would have to actually do it, which I doubt he will.
I dont know since he accepted the military intervention allowance from the Duma.

I think this is the minor thing from him since he thinks US is only a nuisance. Obama threat from yesterday was just swiped away.
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Matruchus: He is already bein sued in Haag by several Ukrainian people.

Its seems now that Russia will Annex whole eastern Ukraine by the reports from Kharkow.
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Sanjuro: What the-? No, still withholding my judgement till I get a clear picture. And that I still lack.

Is it just me or do we really have some rotten luck with Olympic games? :-\
I dont know but they are showing so called Pro-Russian violent protests in the east of Ukraine and this will easly get putins army there in order to protect russian people there. It will be same as Crimea.
Seems similar to last weeks Ukrainian revolution only these will call mother russia.

Klitschko called for general mobilisation of Ukrainian army.
Post edited March 01, 2014 by Matruchus
Posted March 01, 2014
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StingingVelvet: The more I am reading the more I wonder how bad an outcome that would really be. The remaining Ukraine could join the EU and get what its population wants, the annexed area could become part of Russia which seems to be what most of its population wants. Maybe it would be best for everyone.

Not that global politics and State borders are really that simple.
Also, if i read it correctly, economy isn't that simple either.
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wbrk: Well, there's this, but it's only for 2011 and don't know how trustworthy it is, but statistics doesn't look good.
Thanks, that's something to think about. I don't see any reference to sources though so I'll have to (somehow) try to check this.
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussionUkrainian Civil War in progress?(1767 posts) (1767 posts) 
(1767 posts)