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XenSavage: oh yeah, whole world wants to put mighty Russia on it's knees, because they are frightened of the sheer power of Russian army :) They will even shot down planes to blame russia, those devils :) Dude, i'm not sure what photos are you talking about but it's kind of a fact that plane was shot down from territory that was controlled by terrorists. How the f#ck they could be ukrainian ?

Regarding Yatsenyuk resignation - it was because parliament didn't support his propositions and it wasn't connected to plane being shot down at any way, but of course this wouldn't convince you.

Overall, it's just sad how this "USA is the one to blame for everything" kind of shit that goes from Russian media is overtaking the minds. Alcoholics, bad roads and extremely corrupted government was imported from USA too, i presume.
I see you are still good at upkeeping the conversation your style. Well, comrade, let's play. :-)
Was it ever about Russian army? "The whole world" needs to fear it no more than it did a year ago - they didn't spit in the well. However, our southern neighbors are so hyped about it that they see it everywhere even when it's not really there. Oh well.
Last I checked Yatsenyuk was still the PM. Well, at least he's still as vocal as he used to be: http://www.forexlive.com/blog/2014/08/08/ukraine-may-ban-gas-transit-to-europe-as-part-of-sanctions-8-august-2014/
While we're at it, could you please remind the audience which parties were responsible for his propositions not getting a pass? What is "Svoboda"? I thought the nationalists weren't deciding anything in your parliament... were they?
And no, USA have totally no hand in the matter. It was North Korea who spent $5 bln on "helping the democracy in Ukraine", it was Kim Jong-il who dispatched his chief of Intelligence Agency to Kiev, it's North Korea who fling apeshit in the general direction of Russia but go all mysteriously quiet when asked to provide some solid proof to their accusations. Should I continue? I'm curious how you will psaki out of this. :-)
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eRe4s3r: So the list of stuff Russia "boycotts" (since you can't sanction imports) this affects EU and US not alone, also included in this are Canada, Japan, Australia and a few others with close ties to the west. Obviously some of this is bad for Russians and some isn't. The very last 2 entries are very bad for Russians. General food will become more expensive. (And for Europeans, cheaper, thanks Putin ;P)
<...>
Pork
Beef
Chicken
Fish
Cheese
Milk
Butter
Wine
ALL vegetables
ALL fruits
<...>
Also note: Should this boycott remain in place for a longer period of time, these losses will mitigate because of new markets. For Russia prices will rise ie. Inflation.
<...>
Ps.: Unless you have money and want to buy the "good" food in Russia ;p Foreign food will be even more expensive if available at all, and you can expect smuggle and black markets to appear. As they always do when imports are banned but the demand is still there.
I like how you mix up boycotting all food import and boycotting certain food import from certain countries. If it's possible this isn't any trouble to Europe, well, meh, will it be to Russia? Turkey, Belorussia, China, LA countries aren't banned from the market last I checked so... :-p
No, I'm not saying the prices won't rise (you give those buggers who call themselves businessmen an excuse, they'll suck you dry), but nothing too dramatic. So sorry, the show's cancelled, nothing to see here.
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Sanjuro: I like how you mix up boycotting all food import and boycotting certain food import from certain countries. If it's possible this isn't any trouble to Europe, well, meh, will it be to Russia? Turkey, Belorussia, China, LA countries aren't banned from the market last I checked so... :-p
No, I'm not saying the prices won't rise (you give those buggers who call themselves businessmen an excuse, they'll suck you dry), but nothing too dramatic. So sorry, the show's cancelled, nothing to see here.
Yeah, I guess I did mix foods together ;p It was largely based on an article from Spiegel Online ^^

Did anyone else hear the recent announcement that Ukraine wants to block all gas transfer to Europe? That's gonna make them many friends here. (I don't think they'll do it ,p)
Post edited August 08, 2014 by eRe4s3r
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Klumpen0815: Everything, literally EVERY FUCKING THING coming from Russia as a state I encounter slightly pisses me off though.
Why are all the soldiers, police officers, whatever not revolting against Putin and his evil comrades?
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vsr: Just Keep Calm and Carry On.
Why should they revolt? This is theirs leader, they chose him. Majority of population chose him. He is the Chosen One! Ha-ha-ha! =)
I remember that german soldiers back in 1941 were absolutely sure that they are liberating people of USSR from evil Stalin and bolshevik's tyranny. Same story happens again, it seems. Only difference is Putin is the "evil" here.
*Sigh* Fine. I'm waiting for you. Liberate me.
<where is my good old AK?>
Dafuq? Then you remember wrong or only propaganda.
Quite a big chunk of the army including high ranking officers wasn't fond of the politics at all.
Stauffenberg (even you should have heard of that name) wasn't the only one by far and even starting to doubt the decisions and with it ones own loyalty to the states politics was a very big thing back then for soldiers and officers (and still is).

But it seems as though you don't see Stalin as bad and so I can be sure that your brainwashing was completed and every further discussion is senseless.
______________________

Body count ranking:

1st place: Mao Zedong
China (1949-76) Regime Communist Victims 60 million

2nd place: Joseph Stalin
Soviet Union (1929-53) Regime Communist Victims 40 million

3rd place Adolf Hitler
Germany (1933-45) Regime Nazi dictatorship Victims 30 million

Putin may have a hard time getting into the top three, but he sure is trying for quite a while now to "honor" his predecessors and as former KGB he has the right mindset.
Post edited August 20, 2014 by Klumpen0815
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vsr: Just Keep Calm and Carry On.
Why should they revolt? This is theirs leader, they chose him. Majority of population chose him. He is the Chosen One! Ha-ha-ha! =)
I remember that german soldiers back in 1941 were absolutely sure that they are liberating people of USSR from evil Stalin and bolshevik's tyranny. Same story happens again, it seems. Only difference is Putin is the "evil" here.
*Sigh* Fine. I'm waiting for you. Liberate me.
<where is my good old AK?>
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Klumpen0815: Dafuq? Then you remember wrong or only propaganda.
Quite a big chunk of the army including high ranking officers wasn't fond of the politics at all.
Stauffenberg (even you should have heard of that name) wasn't the only one by far and even starting to doubt the decisions and with it ones own loyalty to the states politics was a very big thing back then for soldiers and officers (and still is).

But it seems as though you don't see Stalin as bad and so I can be sure that your brainwashing was completed and every further discussion is senseless.
______________________

Body count ranking:

1st place: Mao Zedong
China (1949-76) Regime Communist Victims 60 million

2nd place: Joseph Stalin
Soviet Union (1929-53) Regime Communist Victims 40 million

3rd place Adolf Hitler
Germany (1933-45) Regime Nazi dictatorship Victims 30 million

Putin may have a hard time getting into the top three, but he sure is trying for quite a while now to "honor" his predecessors and as former KGB he has the right mindset.
So, basically this means you will not liberate me from evil Putin? I'm disappointed. :'(
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Phasmid: I broadly blame the Ukrainians for the convoy crossing as it did, and for stalling, certainly. Had I been in their position I would have simply said "yes, cross at Kharkov once the ICRC and inspections have been done".
that's how it was supposed to happen and that was UA side position.

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Phasmid: Why? If you're genuinely concerned about weapon smuggling in those trucks then the most important thing is to inspect them, you don't want to give Russia an excuse to cross them uninspected. Constantly changing your position and taking a week from your inspectors arriving to checking 1/7 of the cargo is pretty unreasonable, setting aside any other considerations.
You know, it's hard to have an argument with you when you don't even have a slightest clue of what you are talking about. There is no possible excuse to breach the border with other country - imagine trucks from Mexico crossing USA border or China providing aid to Siberia with unmarked uninspected trucks - they will be destroyed on first sight, and rightfully so.
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eRe4s3r: Ukrainian gov stepped down for re-elections..... odd timing...
yeah :( Parliament had to be re-elected because a lot of people in there were supporting separatism but there is no guarantee that new parliament would be a lot better as election laws are remaining the same still and they are objectively bad.
Post edited August 26, 2014 by XenSavage
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HeadClot: I fear for the worst.
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vsr: I think it is inevitable. Russia is the largest and only country which stands in the way of USA. And has a lot of resources USA and Europe need.
USA is constantly destabilizing borders of Russia and eventually this will grow into full fledged war.
War will feed USA, like it did during WWII.
A lot of europeans and russians will die, but americans will prosper (if USA will not be nuked).
That's why it is essential to NATO to disarm russian nuclear forces by placing in Ukraine AEGIS missiles, which will intercept russian missiles early on, effectively negating nuclear strike back on USA. Crimea was lost and it is a great strategic failure for NATO countries, but future is still uncertain.

Worry not, american. Europeans should fear - theirs role is cannon fodder in future War.
Hypothetically... I think both sides will collapse economically before we reach full-fledged war, and Russia, having an economy which is a fraction of the size of either the EU or the US, and which depends much more on exports to Europe and the US than vice versa -- and more specifically on energy prices staying at the unusual heights of the last ~decade -- would be likely to collapse first.

Indeed, the interdependence of the post-cold war global economy, adding to the nuclear MAD of the cold war, makes anything beyond low-level proxy warfare practically suicidal (whether that's e.g. Russia invading the Baltics or NATO directly intervening in East Ukraine). Also: "only country which stands in the way of USA." -- China says hi. China, the massive export economy of which is so dependent on Western markets that they have invested astronomic amounts in the last decades propping up those markets. I'm sure they'd appreciate cheap(er) Russian energy as a result of further deterioration of the Russian-Western relationship, but if Western demand for goods were to lessen/disappear they would require less rather than more energy.
Post edited August 31, 2014 by chean
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Phasmid: All they need to do is provide proof, ie evidence that cannot have holes knocked in it by five minutes on google.

eg, Satellite photos could be proof, but a couple of low quality ones don't say anything relevant, if anything they beg the question as to why such low quality ones are released. If they're the only satellite photos available that show what they want then there certainly there's not enough evidence to say there's been any large scale 'invasion'. And if they have lots of others why not release more, and especially higher quality ones. Anyone can go to Google Earth and see what the same commercial satellite can do, let alone spy satellites. Not like the Russians don't know that the US has spy satellites, they do after all supply the rocket engines to get them into space...
that's not how satellite work. They do not take 24h photos of every part of the earth. Instead they travel certain path taking HQ photos of small part of earth once. then they will never be able to take the same picture again (few places on the planet might be an exception where current orbit passes through former orbit)
USA as spy-friendly it is does not have spy satellites point at every single point of earth or even at every important part of the planet. Instead they travel on orbits which allows them to monitor sites like nuclear silos in Russia, China, military bases in those countries and places where satelitte coverage is extremely important aka where american lives are in danger during military operations. so Iraq, Syria...
If the war escaltes USA probably will be able to put some sattelites on orbit which allows to take HQ photos at any given time of Ukraine territory. but it is extremely costly, ties up resources so it is not done often.

Therefore your demands cannot be met.

But twenty different people yelling 'fact' in unison doesn't prove anything except that those twenty people believe (or purport to believe) that they're saying a fact. That's why I like the analogy to the Iraq War 2 build up. You had lots of supposedly conclusive stuff like satellite photos, mock ups of mobile chemical labs, Powell with his phial of white powder, supposed Al Qaeda links, Nigerien yellowcake, 45 minute launch times, lots of 'just trust us, we're right' all sorts. All shouted as fact. All undeniably wrong.
but a satelite picture is not a single fact. There are many photos, statements from locals, ukraine soldiers AND rebels about presence of russian military in the area. We also had Crimea inncident where Russian soldiers helped to annex the penisulina but when it was happening Russia claimed there were not their soldiers.

you cannot dispute the evidence based on mistakes of the past. you take them into account and you look critically at the data we have but you do not dispute it because it's not perfect and because people made mistakes and lied before.
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lukaszthegreat: that's not how satellite work. They do not take 24h photos of every part of the earth. Instead they travel certain path taking HQ photos of small part of earth once. then they will never be able to take the same picture again (few places on the planet might be an exception where current orbit passes through former orbit)
USA as spy-friendly it is does not have spy satellites point at every single point of earth or even at every important part of the planet. Instead they travel on orbits which allows them to monitor sites like nuclear silos in Russia, China, military bases in those countries and places where satelitte coverage is extremely important aka where american lives are in danger during military operations. so Iraq, Syria...
If the war escaltes USA probably will be able to put some sattelites on orbit which allows to take HQ photos at any given time of Ukraine territory. but it is extremely costly, ties up resources so it is not done often.

Therefore your demands cannot be met.
Sure they can. Reality is certainly not like something you'd see on a TV program like 24 where Chloe repositions them at a moment's notice and watches Jack take down the terrorists in real time, but it's also nowhere near as spartan as you are making out, if it were they'd be of very limited use indeed. They certainly can be manoevred onto specific orbital paths, else they'd be not much use at all, having to rely on the earth's and the satellite's orbital/ rotational and absolute velocities to line up semi randomly- Digital Globe, the non military commercial provider used say they can take a specific shot in as little as 6 hours. Should also be noted that their stated abilities of their 'basic' package far exceed the quality of the released pictures. And the obvious expectation is that military satellites are better in both regards, the resolution of a near forty year old KH spy satellite was 15cm, by comparison.

And, this situation is exactly what spy satellites are designed for, reconnaissance and intelligence gathering when alternatives do not exist. In Syria and Iraq, as your examples, the US can use drones for surveillance as ISIS have very limited AA capability, they're cheap and numerous, and flexible and easy to manouver and retask. Send the drones into eastern Ukraine or Russia though? They'll be scrap in minutes, if not seconds. So if you want to monitor the situation in Ukraine, and I think we can all agree that the US does want that, then they have to use satellites.
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lukaszthegreat: that's not how satellite work. They do not take 24h photos of every part of the earth. Instead they travel certain path taking HQ photos of small part of earth once. then they will never be able to take the same picture again (few places on the planet might be an exception where current orbit passes through former orbit)
USA as spy-friendly it is does not have spy satellites point at every single point of earth or even at every important part of the planet. Instead they travel on orbits which allows them to monitor sites like nuclear silos in Russia, China, military bases in those countries and places where satelitte coverage is extremely important aka where american lives are in danger during military operations. so Iraq, Syria...
If the war escaltes USA probably will be able to put some sattelites on orbit which allows to take HQ photos at any given time of Ukraine territory. but it is extremely costly, ties up resources so it is not done often.

Therefore your demands cannot be met.
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Phasmid: Sure they can. Reality is certainly not like something you'd see on a TV program like 24 where Chloe repositions them at a moment's notice and watches Jack take down the terrorists in real time, but it's also nowhere near as spartan as you are making out, if it were they'd be of very limited use indeed. They certainly can be manoevred onto specific orbital paths, else they'd be not much use at all, having to rely on the earth's and the satellite's orbital/ rotational and absolute velocities to line up semi randomly- Digital Globe, the non military commercial provider used say they can take a specific shot in as little as 6 hours. Should also be noted that their stated abilities of their 'basic' package far exceed the quality of the released pictures. And the obvious expectation is that military satellites are better in both regards, the resolution of a near forty year old KH spy satellite was 15cm, by comparison.

And, this situation is exactly what spy satellites are designed for, reconnaissance and intelligence gathering when alternatives do not exist. In Syria and Iraq, as your examples, the US can use drones for surveillance as ISIS have very limited AA capability, they're cheap and numerous, and flexible and easy to manouver and retask. Send the drones into eastern Ukraine or Russia though? They'll be scrap in minutes, if not seconds. So if you want to monitor the situation in Ukraine, and I think we can all agree that the US does want that, then they have to use satellites.
Just because they can do it from technical point of view, does not mean they can do it from logistic and monetary and political point of view.

Moving a satellite is costly. It also costs fuel which as far as I know cannot be replenished. Therefore, even if they have the ability to get a satellite at any moment in six hours doing so would be extremely costly. If it is not necessary to do it, then they won't do it for sure. It also ties up resources. It is not like spy sattelites are falling on their orbits doing nothing. No. They were placed on orbits with goals in mind. Now, conflict in Ukraine might become higher priority than current missions and will demand a full 24h coverage by satellites but fortunately nothing happened so far to warrant USA doing something so costly. When that happens military might release higher quality pictures.

Your demand of HQ pictures is unreasonable. It won't happen unless a full scale war between Ukraine and Russia happens which will demand the coverage you seek. Otherwise the conflict has limited impact on USA which does not require them to use their satellites in that area on moments notice. After tanks were spotted crossing border they might have started to point their surviliance equiment at ukraine, but it will take days or even weeks to minimize the cost of fuel (without fuel satellite is useless like you pointed out)
but when that LQ picture was taken there was no reason for USA to point their most advance hardware at Ukraine 24/7.

Moving satellites is costly and can be done easily if the cost is justifiable. nothing in ukraine happened when tanks crossed the border for usa to justify the cost.
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Starmaker: ...edit: forgot the conclusion:

If you think Russia's internal and foreign policies and propaganda are Soviet or neo-Soviet or Communist or Totalitarian Stalinist or whatever, you're wrong -- they are literally neo-Nazi policies with Imperial Russian flavor.
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Trilarion: Oh I understand it. Not much to do with communism, just plain nationalism.
Russian policy - oligarchs do everything to get more money, while trying to not cause a riot.
There are shitty taxes, degrading education and medicine. Basically, we are on the road to USA-like state for common folks with crippling student debts and unbearable minimum wage.

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Trilarion: The currently interesting question is what happens with the eastern part of the Ukraine over the Winter and beyond and what happens to the Russian economy in the next year?
Eastern part of Ukraine probably has better chances to survive winter than western - even Africa doesn't want to sell fuel to official Kiev now. They are really, REALLY untrustful companions. Wait for winter gas war like in 2009.

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Trilarion: My impression is that the economical sanctions have some effect. However there are also low oil prices currently due to over production of the US and Saudi Arabia. Maybe they are part of the economical actions?
Rouble drop(~25%) = oil drop(~25%) with +-% on speculations.
Drop of prices on oil possibly an attempt of Saudi Arabia to bankrupt expensive types of oil extraction, like shale oil.

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Trilarion: Russia is in principle so powerful with the huge amount of exported resources and the strong military but still the economy doesn't look very good, especially with the Rubel going down and high inflation. But will Putin give a damn about all this? Maybe he speculates that economic hardships will fuel nationalistic feelings rather than dampen them. And for sure unless the situation goes extreme support will probably hold in the short time. In the long run his days may be counted. On the other hand with all the repressive laws and media control there is a good chance Russia stops being a democracy for the foreseeable future and then anyway everything depends on what this one guy thinks is right or wrong. Due to the restriction of foreign media to only hold max. 20% many foreign news cooperations have withdrawn or will do so soon. Official Russian media is now fully Russian controlled. I personally think dark times are ahead for Russians.
*Sheds a tear. Poor Russians, Putin is so eviiiil.
Rouble went down in 98, from 6 to 36 per $, up to 70 in some cities, current events are "meh" at best.
Putin has wide support because from the inside current events look like they are being conducted from outside and Putin's steps are merely answers.
Try to think about simple things:
a)"Occupation" without single shot, millions of people supported it in Crimea. Simple explanation - they tried to return at least three times since division, they see what happens in the areas where there are no Russian military. And as a cherry on the cake - they returned to the country, which has three times higher GDP per capita than Ukraine.
b)"Attack of Russian army"... There are tons of satellites, which can't find anything for 6 months? Ukrainian military hides on Russian territory, gets healing there. Ukrainian people flee to "aggressor's" territory and don't protest. There are literal millions of people with Ukrainian heritage in Russia. Do you see multimillion meetings?

It would be dumb to send an army without air support and heavy weaponry against an army, right? Soldiers should be unbelievable dumb to not flee, when they are sent on these conditions. I remember two cases in Georgia in 2008, and they had better conditions. Still haven't seen anything like that in Ukraine.
I still think that these are actions of something like private military companies, which attempted to gain control over Donbass's property and gathered people around them.
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Trilarion: In the last elections the Ukrainians have voted with a big majority towards the West. And actually I wonder how Russia can have any kind of claim towards the old parts of the Soviet Union (Belarus, Ukraine, Kazakhstan, Estonia, Latvia, ...). These are all independent countries for quite some time and it seems to be pure nationalism to ignore that. It seems natural that none of their neighbours want to be part of Russia again ever. At least Ukraine probably feels very negative towards such an idea, not even in parts. The aggressive behavior of Russia this year surely also drove all potential partners away for a long time. Going on the nationalistic way you usually do not make many friends. Either they think they are stronger than anyone else or they think they have fucked up and anyway nothing to loose. In all other scenarios you would probably not alienate all your neighbours.
Strange thing to tell to German, but you don't know what's a nationalism, and more so you don't understand geopolitical tendencies.
Ukraine is mostly flat area, which has close border to Moscow - set base in Ukraine, you had 3 hours on tanks till Moscow. Russia would need buffer zone, destroying west-oriented Ukraine would be same thing like for China destroying Taiwan.
Baltic countries in the same position - they block access to Baltic sea. Attempt to get Crimean base for NATO with Ukraine had same intention - block Russia from Black sea.
Ports are keys, you should know what Königsberg is.
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Trilarion: My sympathies are much more with the Ukrainians and I want to support them and foremost of all I don't think that appeasement works so if you have an aggressive neighbour the best is to stand your ground. So I guess kind of cold war is inevitable (anyway). So rising number of arms and fear of atomic fallout all over again. The only incentive I can give to end this before it starts is to promise that once Putins changes his mind (unlikely) or the Russians themselves can successfully change course (not very likely soon) I will support this change fully. This is anyway all I can do.
You have limited knowledge with dehumanized vision of situation, boiled down to Polandball form "Putin=Russia evil" and "poor victim Ukraine". You don't know people's intentions, wishes and dreams.

Oligarchs sucked Ukraine dry to African level country, and one of them is current president.They are squeezing last drops by taking huge credits and this would lead to really sad end. Ukraine has no future.

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Trilarion: Of course I wonder what would be a fair balancement of all involved parties. How much claim would an impartial observer (which doesn't exist) really give to Russia over Crimea, Eastern Ukraine. But on the other hand this is purely academic. I'm sure that the Russian aims are way off what a fair assessment would give them, so this is all futile anyway. The situation will remain bad until Russia and its neighbours come to peace. And for Eastern Ukraine and the Russian economy in the coming months this will have quite large implications.
"Fair" balancement is easy - you can google translate this article:
http://users.livejournal.com/_devol_/878447.html
Division of voters on president elections, right - pro-russian, left - pro-western regions

Democracy is about people, not about saving lines on the paper, right?
Post edited November 15, 2014 by Gremlion
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Gremlion: There are shitty taxes, degrading education and medicine. Basically, we are on the road to USA-like state for common folks with crippling student debts and unbearable minimum wage.
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XenSavage: Heh, i assume you've lived in US for at least few years at least to see how common folks live ? Or, you know, just at least few weeks ? 'cause otherwise you have no idea how it looks like, just like US guys have no clue how life in ukraine/russia looks like.
Yeah, USA bombs Russia, and it is impossible to get visa. Or even if we get, prices became so unbearable, that we are forced to eat snow instead of travelling. And we have same internet censorship as in China and can't access US sites. Dream on, brainwashed ukrainian boy.
http://imgur.com/search?q=student+debt
http://imgur.com/search?q=minimum+wage
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Gremlion: Eastern part of Ukraine probably has better chances to survive winter than western - even Africa doesn't want to sell fuel to official Kiev now. They are really, REALLY untrustful companions. Wait for winter gas war like in 2009.
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XenSavage: i just love when you're talking about stuff you have zero clue about)
Can't disprove - use personal attack?
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-11-12/steel-mont-cancels-ukraine-coal-supply-contract.html
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Gremlion: And as a cherry on the cake - they returned to the country, which has three times higher GDP per capita than Ukraine.
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XenSavage: with no reliable water supply, no reliable electricity supply and no tourists. And extreme prices for everything without any increase in salaries.That's a fact, just read sevastopols forums.
These are solvable problems. Like living in the country, which riots against every president.
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Gremlion: b)"Attack of Russian army"... There are tons of satellites, which can't find anything for 6 months?
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XenSavage: Last time something was provided to you, your point is was that it's not HD enough. No one is going even to bother this time, especially since you don't really care if what you're posting is even remotely close to truth.
If there was at least ONE undeniable photo, believe me, Putin's approve rating would've been dropped to ~20% or less.
But your censor.net posts screenshots from computer games instead. http://russian.rt.com/article/43294#ixzz3936uHPKJ
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Gremlion: I still think that these are actions of something like private military companies, which attempted to gain control over Donbass's property and gathered people around them.
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XenSavage: With weaponry that only russian army has. OK, sound legit:)
Haven't seen any proof of this - what they use is on the level which Ukraine had after 1991.
Though I have seen report that Ukraine purchased some exported Russian tanks in South America as scrapmetal, and possibly use it for photosessions.
Same as with satellite photos, tbh.

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Gremlion: You have limited knowledge with dehumanized vision of situation, boiled down to Polandball form "Putin=Russia evil" and "poor victim Ukraine". You don't know people's intentions, wishes and dreams.
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XenSavage: Neither do you, but that doesn't prevent you from posting nonsense, does it ?:)
One of killed on Ukraine journalists is my relative. There are more than 1k refugees in my city. My 4 coworkers are from Donbass, moved deeper into USSR in 70-th. They still have relatives and friends on Donbass. They say that this is civil war.

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Gremlion: "Fair" balancement is easy - you can google translate this article:
...
Democracy is about people, not about saving lines on the paper, right?
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XenSavage: To non-russian speaking folks - that's a blogpost from a dude that doesn't even consider Ukraine being a separate country and dividing world into great Russia and some mystical "the West" which is against "the great Russia". Tbh, that's enough for me to stop reading after first paragraph.
Which perfectly predicted name of current Ukrainian president and scenario by which he got it(excluding east Ukraine, 20% of population from voting pool). Deny other people deductions, it is so helpful.
Look at % of voters then, if Cyrillic letters fill you with hatred.
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Gremlion: And we have same internet censorship as in China and can't access US sites. Dream on, brainwashed ukrainian boy.
http://imgur.com/search?q=student+debt
http://imgur.com/search?q=minimum+wage
imgur is undeniably best place to study economy;) Living even on minimum wage in US is extremely different with trying to survive on minimum wage in Russia or Ukraine. You can always find entitled people living even in most stable (economically) countries with highest living standards and those are usually most vocal on internets, but that doesn't change statistic. It's like judging on Russia only by Moscow. And yeah, you're on the way to China-like censorship as far as i know :)

That doesn't mean that ukraine won't survive winter on existing supplies:)

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Gremlion: These are solvable problems. Like living in the country, which riots against every president.
Uhum. Crimea is a peninsula which means that solving those problems is extremely expensive for case of water and electricity and impossible to solve for tourists - as no one recognizes Crimea as Russian territory it would be impossible to arrange flights not from Russia. And russian tourists are not so eager to visit Crimea either - it's cheaper to get to Egypt or Turkey still and a lot easier to travel there.

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Gremlion: If there was at least ONE undeniable photo
There were quite a lot of them. Whole world is talking about it actually, so any sane person by now would consider that maybe, only maybe that may be true and whole world is not against Russia.

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Gremlion: Haven't seen any proof of this - what they use is on the level which Ukraine had after 1991.
yep. Like AK100, tanks, rocket launchers. Those appeared from thin air i think, right ?:)

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Gremlion: One of killed on Ukraine journalists is my relative. There are more than 1k refugees in my city. My 4 coworkers are from Donbass, moved deeper into USSR in 70-th. They still have relatives and friends on Donbass. They say that this is civil war.
And i have a lot of friends from there that are willing to confirm russias regular army presense. I trust them more than you as you may imagine.

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Gremlion: Which perfectly predicted name of current Ukrainian president and scenario by which he got it(excluding east Ukraine, 20% of population from voting pool). Deny other people deductions, it is so helpful.
woot ?:) Emotions aside, any idiot that is at least remotely aware of situation in post-USSR for last 10 years could "predict"
this.

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Gremlion: Look at % of voters then, if Cyrillic letters fill you with hatred.
Hehe:) And that's a person who was blaming everyone else on being nazis just a few posts ago:)
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XenSavage: that's pure speculation on your side. For those who have trouble understanding written text there are explanations in same link _you_ have provided in separate documents.
If it was the same law, it would've been 5 times shorter. Devil is in details.
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XenSavage: yep, that's the one when one of ukrainians was arrested - http://www.pravda.com.ua/news/2015/03/1/7060121/
and he was released: http://www.pravda.com.ua/news/2015/03/1/7060146/ ?
He would be asked about Odessa today.
PS: Don't anyone get cognitive dissonance from the fact that person from the Ukrainian government freely visits "aggressor's territory"?

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Klumpen0815: Wow, it's shocking to see how some Russians here are believing the propaganda for real, I thought most Russians with contact to the rest of the world wouldn't take the stuff they are served at home serious at all.
Wake up, guys. Your media is completely under control, everything is censored, reporters that are not willing to hide the truth are imprisoned all the time, your leaders are all KGB/FSB and you still believe anything they say... blows my mind.

Your leaders are the bad guys just as they were in WW2 alongside the Nazis and afterwards, I was born in a Soviet prison state that (thank heavens) does not exist anymore, face it.
Don't ever believe anything a controlled media is telling you and stop defending genocidal homophobic lying invaders / murderers. I don't want to count the Russian population to the truly evil ones too while their leaders are for sure.
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Klumpen0815: Which collective nose? The western population tends to have quite opposing stances to various topics while this is exactly the one thing the totalitarian Russian propaganda is good at not giving any chance to grow at all - too many varying opinions.
Calm down your hysteria.
We have site inosmi.ru which aggregates translations for all major western press for those who doesn't know second language. Russia haven't banned any media source, maybe with exception for IGIL.
We completely aware about what image our government and country has in your sources.
"Opposing stances" look like that:
"Russia attacked Ukraine, we should let them"
"Russia attacked Ukraine, we should help Ukraine"
"Analysis:Russia attacked Ukraine because Putin controlled by aliens"
"Analysis:Russia attacked Ukraine because Putin is mad"
"Analysis:Russia attacked Ukraine because Putin hates ukrainians"
"Analysis:Russia attacked Ukraine because Putin wants ukrainian plants"
"Analysis:Russia attacked Ukraine for shits and giggles"

http://i.imgur.com/bfn1kRR.jpg

TBH everything you said goes backward with the twist that Russia is no longer has Gulag, but US has Guantanomo and other secret prisons; in capitalistic Russia you watch TV, in capitalistic US TV watches you (Snowden?)

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HijacK: Putin is so malicious that he learned from Western society's schemes. In case of war he wants to disconnect Russia from the internet through a series of blocks and some other stuff that was a bit too technical for me to get it. He is basically planning in case of war to fuel the population with bogus and propagandist news just like US fueled the people during the Spanish American war and WWI in order to strengthen the population's support for war.
"I'm too dumb to understand what I have read, but nonetheless I will parrot it" - you.
China with its Great Firewall can't completely block internet.
Russia has EU countries on borders which we can freely visit - what's the point of banning internet when it takes 2 hours to get into Finland? Imagine Estonia putting free wifi on the border with Russia - what's then? Shoot routers?
Russian border with different countries is ridiculous 60900km.
I should note that many regions have satellite internet which is physically impossible to block.
Yes, Russia building inner net - for saving private data, used in government structures, hospitals and schools, from outer access.
Our government was dumb to NOT build it earlier, payments to military for a while happened through american Visa servers, US knows better amount of people in Russian army than our military minister knows.

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HijacK: You're funny. You're not even aware of what's going in your own country.
Yup, I know that US wants regular "je suis charlie" in Russia.
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Gremlion: How exactly not spending dollars to buy some sorts of cheese drives rouble or starve population? As for starvation... We replace EU goods with goods from countries which didn't implement sanctions.
Although it seems that Greece's embargo would be lifted soon, they are trying to not self-harm for the glory of US.
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HijacK: Before you speak next time, go and learn economics because your attempts to justify your country's actions are pathetic.
Well you already have shown that you are dumb when talked about internet:
http://i.imgur.com/kBDKYLP.png
Rouble got 10% of its cost back during last month.
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Gremlion: Both are foreign countries for Russia. I mentioned the case I know about. US adopted more children than Spain by using the same schemes.
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HijacK: I will play your game now since the ball is in my court. Any proof of this or just the usual?
Proofs were harsh enough to convince majority of our deputies to vote for this resolution.
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F4LL0UT: Yeah, already a whole bunch of years ago I read about stalinism regaining popularity there, Stalin being celebrated as a national hero by disturbingly large numbers of Russians again etc..
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monkeydelarge: WTF. Why?!?
In advance: I don't see USSR or Stalin as innocent things.
But there are quite a lot factors which are different for Russia.
Outer ones:
1. http://www.vox.com/2014/6/16/5814270/the-successful-70-year-campaign-to-convince-people-the-usa-and-not
Strong propaganda makes US citizens believe that they defeated Hitler. It even worked in EU.
Many games, films, books, songs...
2. Propaganda targeted to discredit USSR to the point of nazism.
"Why our country has problems? F-cking commies". I have met grown up american kids that think that Russia is still under commies.
Lovable rhetoric is to say something like "Hitler killed 6M jews, Stalin's victims are in line of 12 millions*"
*Made 1000 death sentences, they could have 3 kids each, their kids could have 3 kids, overall 12 millions of unborn people.
Declassified document http://i.imgur.com/vtBdsh2.jpg
Amount of repressed people in the period 1921-1954: 3 777 380
Sentenced to death 642 980 (some of them replaced with long sentences)
Jail:2 369 220
Deportation: 765 180.
3. There are quite a lot novels by Russian writers about atmosphere of fear in USSR written under CIA supervision http://www.foia.cia.gov/collection/doctor-zhivago

Overall, your view and opinion is a lot worse than reality was.

Stalin for Russians associated with the greatest win in human history which was achieved by us, plus country changed from poor and agrarian to strong machine. We still exist as country, probably, only because we have nuclear weapon, thanks to Stalin. Otherwise Russia would've ended like Serbia.
Post edited March 02, 2015 by Gremlion
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Sanjuro: Also, yes, most of the tzars were closely tied to Europeans with family bonds, but we don't have tzars anymore and can choose whatever path suits us most.
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immi101: you really think it's just the tzars?
Just look at the millions of russian or people with russian roots who live in (mostly eastern) europe. Then there is all the economic relationships. You have to close your eyes _really_ hard to deny the ties between russia and europe.
If everybody would just stop drawing up lines and pretending we have nothing do with each other .... *sigh*
The only relationship you could actually cut is the political one. Everything else, cultural connections, historical connections,families, friends, ... will all still be there.

//ot
Man, Russians live everywhere, as do Chinese, Indians, Negr... whatever you call those people in your country. Still I wouldn't say that China has a lot of cultural connections with Germany or India with Brit... (OK, bad example, let me change that to "Africa with Russia") and let's not even get started with Jews. :-)
So I wouldn't say it's about who lives where. Economic relationships? In modern world almost everyone is (or can potentially be) connected with everyone else (except those who pissed Wash-ton - until recently). So yeah, we do business and in the process have some influence on each other, but still... Most of the European countries are just that - partners. Political, economical, military or otherwise. Maybe that's enough for you to call us one big family, I don't know.
Wanna know with whom we have strong cultural, historical and other ties? Belorussia, Ukraine (or, well, had until someone from Grey House decided that it needs more democracy and a coup), Serbia (can't say about everyone, but many Russians (myself included) feel guilty that we couldn't prevent the sacking of Yugoslavia; yes, yes, we had a ton of problems, Boris Yeltsyn for president and a deep crisis, I know. Hell, I wasn't even old enough to be able to do anything about it! Still, I feel as though we failed them). Finland, probably, we visit each other a lot, have a common history and stuff. Maybe Greece, to a lesser degree. Ex-USSR republics, but not all of those. Then there are the countries of BRICS. I'll give it some more thought in the morning, when I'm not that sleepy.

To make it appear as if I'm staying on topic: there's an old picture titled "what a national border between Russia and Ukraine should be like". Maybe someday, when all this madness ends, it will regain its actuality.
Post edited March 29, 2015 by Sanjuro
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Sanjuro: Man, Russians live everywhere, as do Chinese, Indians, Negr... whatever you call those people in your country. Still I wouldn't say that China has a lot of cultural connections with Germany or India with Brit... (OK, bad example, let me change that to "Africa with Russia") and let's not even get started with Jews. :-)
I'd like to disagree.
We got strong cultural influence from Europe when hiring foreign babysitters for noble kids was a thing.
Then some of these kids popularized foreign tales between common folk. Like our beloved poet of african heritage, Pushkin.
Little red riding hood? ->Красная шапочка (Red hat)
It continued in XX century, The Wonderful Wizard of Oz ->The Wizard of the Emerald City
and continues now.
I witnessed a case where people used quenya to talk to each other, because it was only one common language for them.

Europe does have a thing in its culture which we don't - "burden of the white man". You can see this in Mayne Reid stories or in the Kipling's poem of the same name http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_White_Man%27s_Burden