It seems that you're using an outdated browser. Some things may not work as they should (or don't work at all).
We suggest you upgrade newer and better browser like: Chrome, Firefox, Internet Explorer or Opera

×
"China" returned 66 posts
Clear search criteria
avatar
StingingVelvet: 1) They don't need China to impose sanctions.
2) They don't need China's vote on the security council for anything.
avatar
ktchong: Truth be told: the US and EU need Russia more than Russia needs the US and EU, both politically and economically. The US needs Russia on Syria (and a bunch of other international issues,) and the EU needs Russia on gas supplies.

China has wanted to get Russia to sell more of its gas to China instead of the EU, and Russia to buy more goods from China instead of the EU. So if Russia turns off the gas supply to the EU and starts exchange its gas for Chinese goods, China will be very happy -- it's really a win-win situation for China and Russia.
Eu does not need Russia more than Russia needs Eu. Russian economy can only survive while supplying west with gas. Without it all the Putin's power is gone and we have riots on the streets and so on. This is why they are trying to block alternative routes and sources. Without Russian supply its still possible to get gas. It will be a bit higher price but EU can manage it. Russia on the other hand without money coming from supplying gas is in pretty bad situation.
avatar
Trilarion: I have the feeling it's incredibly hard next to impossible for the Russian side and for the supporters of Putin to ever admit there has been done anything wrong. One can see this here clearly I think. To be blunt: I think it's not okay to send troops, to hasten a vote, to intimidate people living there, to threat by force. Even if you don't like the current political developments in your neighbour country it's still wrong and it shows a willingsness to use force that is so strong that is also poses an international risk.
Fine, let's be blunt. Do we have a solid confirmation there were Russian troops (besides the Black Sea Navy of course) in Crimea? I somehow missed it with all the "they have Russian gear, speak Russian, so they are Russian soldiers". It's good they didn't have western gear and didn't speak English, I guess, 'cause that would be just too much for everyone to take.

And because appeasement just doesn't work my fear of what else Putin might do once he sees he can get away with it is stronger than my fear of losing personal wealth now and I'm not alone.

I guess sanctions will come and we all will have to pay the price and if others get hit hard we will have to support them because having partners in the world is a good thing.
The sanctions [url=http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-17/billionaire-usmanov-turns-to-china-after-selling-apple-facebook.html]come.

I could ask the same: Russians which get hid by economical hardships could as well make their government responsible. I already said that I think democracy in Russia is quite dysfunctional, so unhappiness might just get ignored, but still Putin needs some kind of support for sure. And all that for a bit of land which wasn't in immediate danger and where Russians can go anyway for holiday even if it is not part of the country right now, even if the constitution of 1992 is not reinstated and where you can be sure that taking it by force is not something others are going to like.
How should I put it... there are those who support his politics, there are those who oppose it. Just as usual. The reasoning behind the decisions he makes is probably known to a limited group of people, and I'm not one of them. I won't tell how I feel about it, but let me tell you one thing I'm sure of: Putin is no fool. And the situation might still turn out in all kinds of very interesting ways.

From a power play perspective it might work: Russia is small, not geographical but by population and economics. The rest of the world probably needs it less than it needing the rest of the world.
I see here two assumptions that I do not understand: 1) "the rest of the world" (which is not Russia, I assume) is EU+USA+Turkey; 2) only the West will be able to compensate (even if partially) for the damage done to its economy by the sanctions.
Would you kindly elaborate?

It probably has become clear that I don't have a very high opinion of the current (and long time) Russian government and his leader. Unfortunately the relations between Russia and the West seems to be in a downward spirale with no good options for a positive exit.

So to summarize: I fear Putin. I'm convinced he is not doing justice here, just taking what he can and by using force he is a threat, because of the size of Russia, an international threat. I rather chosenot to appease than to appease him this time, but of course anything can go wrong in the future. So I'm frightened even more. All in all economical sanctions seem like the more safe strategy. It will create clear sides, which of course is nonsense because there are never clear sides. But it tells Putin that this game is not only played by himself. Maybe this is enough to make him stop playing and search for possible agreements. I hope for that.
Enjoy it. Tell us Russian government's everything you despise. That they're the personification of evil. That they're what- responsible for the breakdown of the world order. That Putin's a one-man genocide. Say everything you want to say now. Because this won't last long. (Yes, I do like that movie.)
Post edited March 18, 2014 by Sanjuro
With some time gone now I thought one might discuss beyond the immediate implications. So why did it all happen? Here is my view.

In the early 90s the Soviet Union collapsed but left a number of smaller countries with strong russian minorities and a quite reduced but still very big core Russia. In the first 10 years afterwards basically nobody was able to do change anything about it.

20 years later however core Russia is kind of stable again mostly due to their huge exports of natural resources. Other ex-members are in the NATO (Latvia, ...), others have developed strong national identities (Georgia, Kazahkhstan, ...) and others stayed divided as ever (Ukraine, ...).

However what didn't develop was a strong band of partnership between Russia and Western Europe or between Russia and many of its neighbours. Without dwelling on the reasons for that: Russia seems to want to be different entity. There is something like the notion of a Russian way of life which is different. Also Russia or at least the russian government seems to have ambitions currently of restoring what they once had in the Soviet Union. Why they have such ambitions when they know they will alienate many countries in the world? I don't know, but for now I reckon that military actions are included in the arsenal of possible actions. Let's face it, it's a possibility.

Whatever it really is, the invasion of Crimea was such a restoration. It may as well be the tipping point for the rest of Ukraine the majority of which probably now wants to put as much political distance between them and Russia as possible. The only possible way of preventing a pro-western government in the next election is probably an invasion of the rest of Ukraine. It didn't come so far, so the risk is going down, but it may still come.

I estimate the russian minority even in Eastern Ukraine is not strong enough to repeat a Crimea like coup, not without massive intervention from Russia.

The hastened vote on Crimea, the violation of international contracts, the invasion by russian troops, the subsequent bullying of non russians are by no means up to democratic standards. This can easily be condemned and one can be sure that without all these effects the number of opposing voices would be much greater for sure.

Nevertheless there is a case for independence of Crimea and one should have discussed it much earlier already but even much more importantly - the de facto control of Crimea by Russia will not go away anytime soon. The area is just not important enough to fight over.

The sanctions of the EU and USA that followed were quite small and not very effective and immediately counteracted by the boss of german industry corporation Siemens officially visiting Putin short time after. (*rolleyes*)

So as long as there is no further military clash my idea of what has happened and will happen is this:

- Crimea's status will remain disputed with different maps all over the world but defacto it will be part of Russia.
- Ukraine will elect a center politician in the upcoming elections in May with the clear order to steer the country westwards.
- If so the EU will have to help Ukraine by paying to modernize the country, hopefully corruption can be fighted more effectively by then.
- Business on both sides will take a hit because of political insecurity but may regain track later when time goes by.

This all makes clear who are the winners and losers of this:

- Winners are all Russians living on Crimea who preferred to live in Russia but didn't want to move and do not have high stakes in this seasons tourist business.
- Winners are Ukrainians in rest of Ukraine who wanted to live in a more western oriented country.
- Winner is Russia because it gained territory in a quite undemocratic way but nobody really opposed them.

- Losers are non Russians living on Crimea which would have preferred to stay in Ukraine
- Losers are Russians living in eastern Ukraine which would have preferred to stay in Russia but their chances are now rather lowered than increased.
- Loser is the Ukrainian government who lost territory and property on Crimea.
- Losers are all people everywhere who suffer from business taking a temporal hit.

So in case the rest of Ukraine stays intact and orients itself towards the west, the EU might profit in a quite distant future from that development too. Although not in the next years when they will have to pay for the modernization of Ukraine. However the very positive development in Poland (the western neighbour of Ukraine) in the last 20 years might give an example to Ukraine what can be possible. Basically rest of Ukraine has to modernize and they have to decide where they have the greater chances for this.

In the end there will not be much buffer zone left between Russia and its neighbours: China in the East, EU in the West, some funny countries in the South. I wonder to whom they will turn for partnership, if at all? This will be an open and very interesting question!

Although I'm not completely satisfied with my leaders actions I think their strategy is clear. They kind of inofficially tolerate the annexion of Crimea (by not doing anything severe) but sent a clear message that any step further will result in a severe (economic) action. If anything I think this message was very clear. I personally think that the missing legitimacy should be emphasized and opposed much more, even if there is a case the way the Russians did it is not acceptable.

So realistically the result can be a trade: Crimea against the rest of Ukraine, although I would argue that an annexion is worth much more than an unsure possibility for a fruitful partnership in the future (given the history of Ukraine as source of corruption in the last 20 years). But the result could also be anything up to an open war, if Russia attacks Ukraine again.

Why am I so insisting on saying attack, invasion, annexion? Because that is what Russia tried to hide by sending troops that were camouflaged. But one shouldn't forget this. Ukrainian troops on Crimea could have shot back in the name of self defense against the Russian "self defense" forces. They didn't and it made a big difference. If anyone is a hero, they are!
Post edited April 03, 2014 by Trilarion
Not really, in effect it's a bulk discount to a new customer, much as if you sign up for cable TV or new internet you may get a deal existing customers don't. The best estimate is that the Chinese price will be discounted by between 5-10% relative to the average European price, not unreasonable for a large bulk deal. The estimate Chinese price is around 50% higher than the old discounted price Ukraine was paying, by way of illustration. I'd think both parties would be reasonably happy with the pricing, realistically.

The infrastructure costs are not a major factor, it's not like the infrastructure supplying Europe with gas was free, it too cost money but paid itself back many times over, that's just a cost of business. Much of the infrastructure needed in the east is already built, it does needs some connections and linking to China, but that linking will cost both parties money for infrastructure.
avatar
kava07: ...they have signed a contract with the Chinese for the supply of gas. That contract is like showing middle finger to Western sanctions. ...
avatar
Trilarion: Not sure about this. I heard they went down with the price quite a lot and need to build expensive infrastructure too. The Chinese seem to be lucky winner in this. On the other hand if it leads to more efficient resource consumption in the West I would actually appreciate it. The less of your money you need to spent on resources to more you can spent on other things and the less Russia can sell the more they might actually pay attention to what others want instead of sending inofficial troops like they did in Crimea.
China is crazy hungry for energy right now w/ growth levels so high, and China is geographically located in an unfortunate area where they have to import much (most?) of their energy. This makes alot of sense for China but exposes them to external political influence from Russia. China need for energy is going to drive tensions in East Asia for quite a period of time - especially in disputed territories out in the water where there's currently quite a bit of tension already w/ Vietnam, Phillipines, and Japan.
avatar
HijacK: ... Isn't this technically like showing the middle finger to Western countries? As in "it doesn't matter you'd pay more for gas, we're going to sell it to the Chinese anyways."
One can see it this way, but as I said I actually don't want to have Russian gas if Russia behaves like that. Much better is to invent technologies to live without so much gas consumption.

Actually I wonder if this is really Russia against USA or rather something different. Russia is not really the biggest competitor of USA anymore - there are others like China. Russia is now one power amongst many (not sure if they see it like this themselves) and like a bully in a schoolyard they try to dominate their smaller neighbours. Well the obvious solution is that the neighbours have to stick together. And Russia should not be surprised if there is not much love for them around. Everyone is judged by how he treats others.

I see it more like a regional conflict and I wonder what the ultimate goal is. Regarding the west Russia heads fast towards isolation. So the middle finger may also backfire. It's probably more like a sign that already much is lost and won't come back.
avatar
Sarudalf: ...AA and AntiTank rockets...
I've read that the rocket launchers of the separatists have cost quite a number of lives on the Ukrainian army side with the shooting down of helicopters and this one big airplane. Now I guess you cannot buy rocket launchers just in a shop around the corner. And they cost money. Where exactly did they get the money from and the arms?

Compare this with how things were handled in Crimea by the Ukrainian army and you have a really strong contrast.
Post edited July 14, 2014 by Trilarion
avatar
fartheststar: ...China need for energy is going to drive tensions in East Asia for quite a period of time - especially in disputed territories out in the water where there's currently quite a bit of tension already w/ Vietnam, Phillipines, and Japan.
Oh this is also a hot spot. After having heard that Japanese and Chinese fighter airplanes passed with a distance of 30 metres one or two months ago I wondered if this is another powder keg that might explode in the next 20 years. What if someday a crazy lunatic sits in such an airplane and starts a spiral of death? Men, sometimes I'm extremely happy not to live in a problem region of the world, where problem region is probably at least about half of world area.
I'm true child of USSR - my first grandmother is Poland, grandfather is from Ukraine, they moved to Belarus, where my father was born, and my mother's ancestors are from Ural mountains region.
I won in genetic lottery very good brain with IQ around 150. My second degree is in economics, but who doesn't have it now :)
How I see situation - it looks like "divide and conquer" tactic against humankind, and post-USSR area in particular.
When you are the strongest, it is easy to deal with two hundreds duck-sized horses which attack each other at the same time. Like suing horse for disagreeing with you. http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/01/us-bnp-paribas-settlement-idUSKBN0F52HA20140701 And when you have horse as big as you? Divide it and divide it even more. Start the war between horses, protect and sponsor weaker horse so it would stand against stronger horse for longer period of time.

Last time we had so much fuzz in press in 2008 with the War in Georgia, when Russia was blamed for everything.
It was proved that Saakashvili was the one to blame. He isn't sentenced for war crimes, he is a proud citizen of US now.
USA trained and sponsored Georgian army, Russia took some trophies. USA even asked them back. http://tinyurl.com/ku5arj3

Now, hot trend of the year - Ukraine.
Let's start with Crimea. Ukraine got it as symbolic gift, nobody intended to let it go from USSR. Crimean people didn't like it on their own - they tried to return into Russia three times since detach. Last attempt was successful.
Why they didn't like being Ukrainian?
Ukraine had three revolutions. Ukraine showed zero economical growth. And all this while lending Russia their land and getting huge benefits on gas price without improving life of citizens in Crimea.
Why I think so? Because when USA started third Maidan they already saw needing in renovation of Sevastopol base for their fleet (check the dates when this was posted). https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=2bb691b61c59be3a68180bd8c614a0cb

Second strategical meaning of Ukraine - transit of Russian gas. http://i.imgur.com/E4vqkpd.jpg

Third strategical meaning - war plants on the East. Yeah, it is part of USSR MIC (it was evacuated to Ural during WW2, but still has some) and militants can simply take old USSR weapon or make their own - I hear about capture of tank plant (with some production intake) and ammo plant. But yeah, "they have Russian weapon because Russia supports them".
Who gets benefits of their production? Not USA and EU, obviously. Official Kiev is trigger-happy about leveling them to the ground. Maybe because it benefits leading person in Ukraine - US consul http://i.imgur.com/C3JNK8U.jpg

Who are these militants? I hear version that they are, mostly, private military company of Kolomoysky and he attempts to take over property of Yanukovich's family and fights against Akhmetov and his american friends http://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/article127862117/Hunderte-US-Soeldner-sollen-fuer-Kiew-im-Einsatz-sein.html
Militants don't look like protectors of freedom for me. Why? Because Russia alone houses 100k+ refugees from Ukraine. Ukrainians on their own don't see any point in fighting for ephemeral "democracy" in Ukraine or even fighting for its Independence. This mass giving up on country says something. Remember, three revolutions - they can't live on their own. Poroshenko was the sponsor of Yanukovich's party, so it looks like they removed clothes to let mosquito suck blood faster.

Accident with Malayzian boeing... It benefits official Kiev. Top joke on russian bash.org is "Records from black box would say anything, even pleas for new sanctions against Russia".
You can google translate this article. http://lenta.ru/news/2014/07/21/launchers/ tl&dr version - Ukraine had at least 3 working Buk complexes in the zone of supposed launch, satellite photos as evidence. Compare this to hoaxes "intercepted radio" and "video of Buk" as anti-militant evidences from Ukrainian side.

And all this accompanied with loud messages in press - "Russia went batshit crazy, ready to start the war in Europe, buy our weaponry, invest spare money into stable US".

Sad thing from humanly point of view? Russia doesn't participate in war on state scale - war in Georgia took days, and we have even better army now. Ukrainians kill each other simply because they couldn't sit and talk.
Why Russia doesn't participate? Well, Russia secured their assets in Crimea. MIC is mostly replaced. Gas pipes in Ukraine are on second plan now - we got gas contract with China.
Ukraine has only 3 regions with positive balance of export/import - 2 of them are Novorossya, leveled to the ground. We have nothing to fight for. Human rights or democracy? They made their choice. Ukraine next year would be humanitarian catastrophe - it needs more investments as first payment, like 150% more, than Greece got total. Germany, are you ready to support another piss poor country with MayDown's government for free?

So, summarize - EU gets burden of rotten corpse, Russia gets fireplace of hatred near border and tons of sanctions, Ukrainians lose country. Who wins? Someone, who replaces Russian export to Europe with own while making money on war contracts.
avatar
apehater: ... i'm very happy, that you post the truth, which helps against this disgusting and irrational anti-russian propaganda in the west media. +1
I cannot let this stand uncommented. People in germany don't really know how good they have it now, also with media. There is so much to choose, you can see freely what you want, you can even say a lot of nonsense, nobody will object in general, people will just ignore you. Try to say the same thing but the other way around in China or in Russia and you'll see what real freedom is worth.

I compared german and russian media in the last days I can only say that I'm happy to live here. In german media you have indeed tendencies to denounce Putin - he has a very bad image currently. But at least all the relevant facts are contained in the information. In russian media you get half of the facts (those who fit) and a lot of nonsense. If you believe it then Ukraine consists totally of fascists and the separatists never ever did any bad thing and everything in the world is a US conspiracy.

The difference is actually not as big as I would like it to be but still I would say that anti-russian propaganda in western media is mostly harmless and not competitive with russian news articles - at least the ones I saw. As I said, glad to be here where you can say anything.
Post edited July 23, 2014 by Trilarion
avatar
apehater: ... i'm very happy, that you post the truth, which helps against this disgusting and irrational anti-russian propaganda in the west media. +1
avatar
Trilarion: I cannot let this stand uncommented. People in germany don't really know how good they have it now, also with media. There is so much to choose, you can see freely what you want, you can even say a lot of nonsense, nobody will object in general, people will just ignore you. Try to say the same thing but the other way around in China or in Russia and you'll see what real freedom is worth.

I compared german and russian media in the last days I can only say that I'm happy to live here. In german media you have indeed tendencies to denounce Putin - he has a very bad image currently. But at least all the relevant facts are contained in the information. In russian media you get half of the facts (those who fit) and a lot of nonsense. If you believe it then Ukraine consists totally of fascists and the separatists never ever did any bad thing and everything in the world is a US conspiracy.

The difference is actually not as big as I would like it to be but still I would say that anti-russian propaganda in western media is mostly harmless and not competitive with russian news articles - at least the ones I saw. As I said, glad to be here where you can say anything.
i'm happy that people like Gremlion are posting the truth to hold up againts posts like your reply. also i dont want to discuss with you about the civil war in ukraine, but can you maybe tell me how many languages do you speak (without google translator) and which websites you use for infos about the war?
Such a delicate and complicated subject to discuss. I'll try to be as short as I can:

- I have no problem with the anexation of Crimea by Rusia (it was a gift etc)
- I do have a problem with the so-called rebels that get powerful weapons from "somewhere" and accidentally kill innocent people (talking about the recent civilian plane crash). Everyone points the finger to someone else but how does that help the situation?
- there are 2 super-powers fighting here US and Rusia, and Ukraine is the punching bag. They should just man up and take it out mano-a-mano
- i'm on the side of US in this situation because from that side freedom of speech is a real thing and people can freely state their opinions and listen to conspiracy theories that aren't one-sided. On the other hand Rusia has a controlled media.

Disclaimer: I don't hate Rusia, I used to respect it as a powerful country but I have lost that respect due to the recent events. There is only one winner from all of this: China, a country that has understood that nowadays wars are economical and not military.

My thoughts go to the people that have suffered greatly from a useless war. May it end as soon as possible!
avatar
Mariws: Such a delicate and complicated subject to discuss. I'll try to be as short as I can:

- I have no problem with the anexation of Crimea by Rusia (it was a gift etc)
- I do have a problem with the so-called rebels that get powerful weapons from "somewhere" and accidentally kill innocent people (talking about the recent civilian plane crash). Everyone points the finger to someone else but how does that help the situation?
- there are 2 super-powers fighting here US and Rusia, and Ukraine is the punching bag. They should just man up and take it out mano-a-mano
- i'm on the side of US in this situation because from that side freedom of speech is a real thing and people can freely state their opinions and listen to conspiracy theories that aren't one-sided. On the other hand Rusia has a controlled media.

Disclaimer: I don't hate Rusia, I used to respect it as a powerful country but I have lost that respect due to the recent events. There is only one winner from all of this: China, a country that has understood that nowadays wars are economical and not military.

My thoughts go to the people that have suffered greatly from a useless war. May it end as soon as possible!
Thats what my brother said, whats the point of wars when its too costly. The Future of Warfare will be fought with economics, Out-Rich the opposing country by being the most economically powerful and influential. Infact that was partly the outcome of the Cold War what with the Arms and the Space race. The USA just became bigger than the Soviet Union in terms of Economics. Poland under Communist Warsaw Pact was borrowing resources from the USA to improve the standard of living in the 70s.
avatar
Klumpen0815: . . . but am well aware, that it's somehow Russias (and Chinas) speciality to spread whatever you need to be "the good one", even if your raping a whole continent and somehow I think Putin wants to do this in his time too, he has done enough shit to be seen as one of the bigger criminals of our time years ago already.
I don't know man. Remember those WMDs in Iraq? Or the incubator lie? I'm not saying Russia and China are saints, but neither are the western countries and their illustrious leaders.
avatar
cairne: I'm not saying Russia and China are saints, but neither are the western countries and their illustrious leaders.
Certainly not.
Russia's economic structure is still very much based on Soviet times, as in production is geared towards domestic consumption and self-sufficiency. Russia isn't China and sanctions will have little, if any, impact on the average Russian, if it hurts anyone it will rich oligarchs with lots of their wealth kept offshore. If anything Europe will just hurt itself through rising gas prices, and America won't import vodka, caviar or whatever insignificant exports Russia has to the West.

Everywhere from Syria to Ukraine and beyond, America has revealed themselves as incompetent fools.
Post edited August 07, 2014 by Crosmando