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"China" returned 66 posts
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WhiteElk: i can't help but to wonder if related to this Crimea situation, is the u.s. antagonism of China. Just today His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama, gave an opening prayer in the u.s. senate. For days China has been protesting his visit. Now he symbolically participates in our governdent. Maybe it is unrelated, but maybe it's another level to all this. i don't know, but my governdent is nuts. Who knows what it'll do.
At least your goverment didn't invade Tibet...., okay they did invade Iraq.
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WhiteElk: i can't help but to wonder if related to this Crimea situation, is the u.s. antagonism of China. Just today His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama, gave an opening prayer in the u.s. senate. For days China has been protesting his visit. Now he symbolically participates in our governdent. Maybe it is unrelated, but maybe it's another level to all this. i don't know, but my governdent is nuts. Who knows what it'll do.
It's not connected. Dalai Lama visits different countries frequently from his Exile in India.
Post edited March 07, 2014 by Matruchus
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WhiteElk: i can't help but to wonder if related to this Crimea situation, is the u.s. antagonism of China. Just today His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama, gave an opening prayer in the u.s. senate. For days China has been protesting his visit. Now he symbolically participates in our governdent. Maybe it is unrelated, but maybe it's another level to all this. i don't know, but my governdent is nuts. Who knows what it'll do.
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Matruchus: It's not connected. Dalai Lama visits different countries frequently from his Exile in India.
Yes i am aware of Dalai Lama visits. And know he has visited with my nations current president before. lol i follow His Holliness the 14th Dalai Lama on facebook and YouTube, having listened to many hours of his teachings. i've also been following the rhetoric between China and the u.s. regarding his most recent visit. Curious as to the silliness of court both nations play. i was speaking particularly to my nations move of asking Dalai Lama to open a session of u.s. congress. This act is political. The ramifications, intent, and possibilities i do not understand. But i see. Perhaps others here, see other pieces. Maybe we gain a bigger picture by assembling our disparate pieces in forum. i don't know, to learn more was my intent.
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Matruchus: It's not connected. Dalai Lama visits different countries frequently from his Exile in India.
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WhiteElk: Yes i am aware of Dalai Lama visits. And know he has visited with my nations current president before. lol i follow His Holliness the 14th Dalai Lama on facebook and YouTube, having listened to many hours of his teachings. i've also been following the rhetoric between China and the u.s. regarding his most recent visit. Curious as to the silliness of court both nations play. i was speaking particularly to my nations move of asking Dalai Lama to open a session of u.s. congress. This act is political. The ramifications, intent, and possibilities i do not understand. But i see. Perhaps others here, see other pieces. Maybe we gain a bigger picture by assembling our disparate pieces in forum. i don't know, to learn more was my intent.
I know but there is just lack of real information since both media are very biased. I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. There probably were pro-western agitators on maidan and western Ukraine. Where as you had and have pro-russian agitators in the east and Crimea. This was just cooked up because of western and russian imperial ambitions.
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DarzaR: ...democratically elected by people Nazi party...
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Trilarion: Just in case you are really interested in this although I'm not sure about that. The current theory nowadays is that a Nazi party such as the one from this time now would have been forbidden much earlier. And the actions employed by the Nazi party would have been forbidden too. A good constitution and a non-corrupt justice system would be the key defenders there. So you can only elect parties who respect the basic freedoms. Probably you'll now say that this is not democracy then.

So, looking a few years ahead. What will come next? Where will Russia stand in 2020 in terms of politics and geography and economy?
Well I think Putin's grab for influence in former Soviet countries will not stop until he get's it all back. But Russia is going to take a big economic hit which has already started to happen with russian stock markets showing stocks falling all the time, rubbel is losing value for two weeks now and the russian central bank had to increase interest rates to 7.5% (always the point when investors start running away). Since the german chanchellor said that Germany is prepared to take the economic hit by sanctioning Russia it might get bad for Russia at the end. I think that by 2020 the country will be isolated and only in contact with China and NK if that since China owns 2/3 of american state bonds and is financing their policys.
Post edited March 14, 2014 by Matruchus
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StingingVelvet: Rampant consumerism certainly has its downsides, but I would take it over poverty damn near every day of the week
If your vampire masters throw to you the bigger leftovers than our vampire masters do, this does not mean that you live in prosperity and we live in poverty.

You should agree that the existing system is cannibalistic no matter what country we take as an example - USA, Russia, China or North Corea. You get the computer drawn zeros as your salary and you have an illusion of your influence on events through "elections" and other sparkling baubles. If you decide to get out of this system - you will be caught and installed back. Your "richness" often could be poorer than my "poverty".
Voluntary educational debilitation - slave must be ignorant. Rampant consumerism - slave must spend his time (free from toiling) to chase the things that he was told he needs. Child-free ideology and the cult of career - number of slaves must not exceed the amount needed to maintain the system and the innoxious amount in cases of rare feeble riots.

Read Ray Bradbury. IMO, the one of the last GREAT Americans.

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Rodor: 1) There's NO Russian, Ukranian and Belorussian nationality, they are the ONE divided nation. They have ONE generic genetics, history AND LANGUAGE. "Ukranian language" is an artificial thing mostly made by Shevchenko (although his personal diary is written in pure "russian").
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StingingVelvet: You can believe that all you like, but it doesn't trump international law.
It's not belief, it's knowledge.

Once someone asked Carl Gustav Jung (the great psychologist, Freud's apprentice), does he believe in God. Jung answered: I don't need to believe, I do know.
Post edited March 15, 2014 by Rodor
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Rodor: If your vampire masters throw to you the bigger leftovers than our vampire masters do, this does not mean that you live in prosperity and we live in poverty.

You should agree that the existing system is cannibalistic no matter what country we take as an example - USA, Russia, China or North Corea. You get the computer drawn zeros as your salary and you have an illusion of your influence on events through "elections" and other sparkling baubles. If you decide to get out of this system - you will be caught and installed back. Your "richness" often could be poorer than my "poverty".
Like I said, I lived in the former USSR for a while. I know the differences quite intimately. I find value in both lifestyles for sure, but you act so superior to our evil consumerism which is pretty ignorant really. There are vast rewards, rewards most people feel are worth the trade-off.

In either case neither is wrong or right, simply different. You should remember that when you get that rhetoric really flowing.
And the US and EU can forget about any sort of economic sanction on Russia. It won't work unless China go along with it, and China will NOT, NEVER, go along with it. Unless the US and EU want to put sanctions on China for not going along with the sanctions on Russia.. yeah, like, good luck on putting sanctions on BOTH Russia and China. Not to mention as if EU would stop buying gas from Russia.

Actually, China would love the EU to have heavy sanctions on Russia. For the longest time, China has been telling Russia, "hey, don't sell your gas and oil to Europe. Sell them to us! (Because we know China can never have enough oil and gas.) And don't buy so many expensive stuff from Europe, we make the same things and you can buy from us!" Should the US and EU put heavy sanctions on Russia, it will play right into China's hands.
Post edited March 16, 2014 by ktchong
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ktchong: And the US and EU can forget about any sort of economic sanction on Russia. It won't work unless China go along with it, and China will NOT, NEVER, go along with it. Unless the US and EU want to put sanctions on China for not going along with the sanctions on Russia.. yeah, like, good luck on putting sanctions on BOTH Russia and China. Not to mention as if EU would stop buying gas from Russia.
Uhh... first off, they don't need China to do sanctions. Secondly China is a big supporter of state sovereignty, and already abstained from one security council vote.

The West can definitely hurt Russia over this. Russia's economy relies on Europe, and is already in a rough financial state. Whether Germany and others really go full force on hurting Russia is another matter, but they CERTAINLY would if Russia went into East Ukraine, as you advised them to.
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StingingVelvet: Uhh... first off, they don't need China to do sanctions. Secondly China is a big supporter of state sovereignty, and already abstained from one security council vote.

The West can definitely hurt Russia over this. Russia's economy relies on Europe, and is already in a rough financial state. Whether Germany and others really go full force on hurting Russia is another matter, but they CERTAINLY would if Russia went into East Ukraine, as you advised them to.
I believe China will stay as far away from this mess as possible. You are right that China is a big supporter of state sovereignty, but at the same time China will not want to hurt their relation with Russia. I don't see China gonna directly take side in this whole mess.
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PandaLiang: I believe China will stay as far away from this mess as possible. You are right that China is a big supporter of state sovereignty, but at the same time China will not want to hurt their relation with Russia. I don't see China gonna directly take side in this whole mess.
Of course not, I didn't say they would. I said they won't stand in the way, and abstained once already.

And the whole debate is kind of pointless because the US and EU don't need China to impose sanctions, so there's no point to the discussion. All they need China for is to make a political statement by having Russia be the sole veto to UN Security Council action, which they already got.
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StingingVelvet: Uhh... first off, they don't need China to do sanctions. Secondly China is a big supporter of state sovereignty, and already abstained from one security council vote.

The West can definitely hurt Russia over this. Russia's economy relies on Europe, and is already in a rough financial state. Whether Germany and others really go full force on hurting Russia is another matter, but they CERTAINLY would if Russia went into East Ukraine, as you advised them to.
China does not see this as just a "state sovereign" issue. Chinese see many parallels between the US has been doing to China and what the US has been doing to Russia. The US has been "encircling" China, poaching what China considers as its backyards in South Korea, Japan, Vietnam and other neighboring states to surround and contain China -- in the same vein as what the US has been doing to Russia for the past two decades: interfering in Georgia, Ukraine, i.e., right in Russia's backyards, to subvert and sabotage Russia's sphere of influence.

I can tell you A LOT OF Chinese, and I've heard from them and read in many Chinese forums, (where I hang out most of the time,) when Chinese see what what the US and EU have been doing in East Europe and the former Soviet members, immediately recognize that pattern as the exact same thing as what the US has been doing to and around (i.e., surrounding) China. It is almost the exact same tactics. So I think many Chinese -- and China -- can sympathize with Russia, and kinda glad that Russia took a hard stance, and wish China could have done the same and sent a strong message to the US.

China is not going to help the US efforts to encircle, surround, contain, subvert and sabotage Russia via proxy states, when the US have been doing the same things to China.

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StingingVelvet: And the whole debate is kind of pointless because the US and EU don't need China to impose sanctions, so there's no point to the discussion. All they need China for is to make a political statement by having Russia be the sole veto to UN Security Council action, which they already got.
Not exactly.

What the US and EU needed was China to vote yes. China knew Russia needed only one vote to veto to UN resolution to invalidate the Crimea referendum, so China knew it did not need to vote at all. The resolution did not need two vetoes to fail. It only needed one.

However, the US and EU really needed China to vote "yes", as a message that the West have "international consensus" or "international backing" on this one, (other than Russia that disagreed.) Anything without Russia *and* China is not exactly an international consensus. However, the vote result showed that there was no "international consensus." It was just Russia vs West. And China clearly saying that they are not with the West on this one and, therefore, it was not exactly an "international consensus" (minus Russia.)
Post edited March 16, 2014 by ktchong
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ktchong: China is not going to help the US efforts to encircle, surround, contain, subvert and sabotage Russia via proxy states, when the US have been doing the same things to China.

...

Not exactly.

What the US and EU needed was China to vote yes. China knew Russia needed only one vote to veto, so China knew it did not need to vote at all. However, the US and EU needed China to vote "yes", as a message that they have "international consensus". As the votes turned out, it was a Russia vs West on this one, with China clearly saying, "we are certainly not with the West on this one," and therefore, it is not exactly an "international consensus."
I'm honestly not sure what's you're arguing against but it isn't anything I'm saying.

1) They don't need China to impose sanctions.
2) They don't need China's vote on the security council for anything.

Those are my points. That's it. Your original post implied the West need China to punish Russia for this, and they don't. That's all that I am saying. Your comments about China not supporting Western imperialism through economic and cultural persuasion aren't something I am disagreeing with or arguing against, I'm saying it's just not relevant.
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StingingVelvet: 1) They don't need China to impose sanctions.
2) They don't need China's vote on the security council for anything.
1. The West don't need China to impose sanctions, but the sanctions won't be successful without China's support. (Actually, I think Brazil and India along with China, as parts of BRIC, will not support the sanctions either.)

Truth be told: the US and EU need Russia more than Russia needs the US and EU, both politically and economically. The US needs Russia on Syria (and a bunch of other international issues,) and the EU needs Russia on gas supplies.

China has wanted to get Russia to sell more of its gas to China instead of the EU, and Russia to buy more goods from China instead of the EU. So if Russia turns off the gas supply to the EU and starts exchange its gas for Chinese goods, China will be very happy -- it's really a win-win situation for China and Russia.

2. Neither the West nor Russia needed China's vote on the UNSC for anything -- because the West and Russia themselves have veto power, just as China does not need the West nor Russia to veto anything because China can use its own veto power. As it is now, Russia has already vetoed the West's UN resolution on Crimea. Of course China already knew Russia was going to veto, so why bother? Strategically and politically, it's smarter to just not take an open stance.

I'd say it's more significance that China did not vote YES with the West on the resolution than NO to veto it (because a China's veto vote would mostly be useless, but a yes vote from China would have carried an important message: that China supports the West and opposes Russia in Crimea.)
Post edited March 16, 2014 by ktchong
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ktchong: 1. The West don't need China to impose sanctions, but the sanctions won't be successful without China's support. (Actually, I think Brazil and India along with China, as parts of BRIC, will not support the sanctions either.)

Truth be told: the US and EU need Russia more than Russia needs the US and EU, both politically and economically. The US needs Russia on Syria (and a bunch of other international issues,) and the EU needs Russia on gas supplies.
Well that's not the picture being painted by any Western media. Yes the EU buys about 30% of its gas from Russia, but everything I have read says they could make that up by buying from the US instead, or seeking alternatives. And besides, no one is saying natural gas has to be the source of the sanctions. In contrast everything I am reading says Russia's economy is extremely fragile, and that serious sanctions will really hurt them.

If you have some evidence to the contrary that isn't from Russian state media I'll be happy to read it.

Though I still don't see how we need China's approval either way.
Post edited March 16, 2014 by StingingVelvet