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Is someone keeping a scorecard somewhere by chance of the Linux support status of each of the pieces of middle-ware used in The Witcher 3? Quite a while back I remember reading somewhere that several middle-ware components weren't available for Linux, then I believe later on I read one of them was in beta for Linux, but I don't follow/keep track of that sort of thing so I'm not up on current affairs but it just popped into my head.
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skeletonbow: Is someone keeping a scorecard somewhere by chance of the Linux support status of each of the pieces of middle-ware used in The Witcher 3? Quite a while back I remember reading somewhere that several middle-ware components weren't available for Linux, then I believe later on I read one of them was in beta for Linux, but I don't follow/keep track of that sort of thing so I'm not up on current affairs but it just popped into my head.
I once did some research on this, and concluded that most if not all middleware used in TW3 (at least one listed in the opening credits) should have Linux versions. One I wasn't sure about was Umbra3D, because their site said nothing about Linux. I contacted them, and they confirmed, that they support Linux versions of their library.

I don't think middleware is a blocker for CDPR. Rewriting a tangled spaghetti of DX11 into something usable on Linux can be however a problem. For once, for example translating all their HLSL shaders into GLSL or SPIR-V. But it seems this should be less of a problem now. This project is progressing nicely: https://github.com/KhronosGroup/glslang/issues/362

More here.
Post edited February 05, 2017 by shmerl
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shmerl: I once did some research on this, and concluded that most if not all middleware used in TW3 (at least one listed in the opening credits) should have Linux versions. One I wasn't sure about was Umbra3D, because their site said nothing about Linux. I contacted them, and they confirmed, that they support Linux versions of their library.

I don't think middleware is a blocker for CDPR. Rewriting a tangled spaghetti of DX11 into something usable on Linux can be however a problem. For once, for example translating all their HLSL shaders into GLSL or SPIR-V. But it seems this should be less of a problem now. This project is progressing nicely: https://github.com/KhronosGroup/glslang/issues/362

More here.
Cool, hopefully that's the case. I imagine at the present time anyone on their payroll is and will be assigned ongoing to working on Cyberpunk 2077 as first, second, third and fourth through 100th priority though. Once the game is released I imagine they'll keep much of the team working on patching bugs in the game and working on expansions for some time, but perhaps at some point they can re-evaluate the plausibility of a Linux port of TW3 once they've got freed up manpower to put on another task. I imagine that'll be a few years wait though as they're heavily invested in CP2077 at this point.

Another factor worth noting is that the lead engine designer for TW3 no longer works for CDPR, however he does work at GOG.com.
Post edited February 05, 2017 by skeletonbow
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skeletonbow: Once the game is released I imagine they'll keep much of the team working on patching bugs in the game and working on expansions for some time, but perhaps at some point they can re-evaluate the plausibility of a Linux port of TW3 once they've got freed up manpower to put on another task.
I doubt that, since by that time they'll be working on some new hot project XYZ. That's how studios operate. The best case scenario would be them hiring new developers to port their old titles, or more likely, simply offloading it to subcontractors like Feral or VirtualProgramming. It's surprising they didn't do it already, which probably means that they are drifting in the direction of legacy publishers which ignore Linux. I.e. they want to be more like EA and Bethesda, and not like Devolver Digitial (who actively encourage Linux releases).

In this light, a more pressing question is not whether they'll work on TW3 again (unlikely), but whether they'll release CP2077 for Linux, or it will be another Windows locked release. A related question is, whether they are using Vulkan in it, or not. I didn't manage to get any info on that. CDPR don't publish anything about their work in progress and ignore all questions.

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skeletonbow: Another factor worth noting is that the lead engine designer for TW3 no longer works for CDPR, however he does work at GOG.com.
I tried contacting him for an interview about engine work and Linux in CDPR, but he was impossible to reach, and even people who tried to help me were rebuffed. CDPR apparently don't want anyone to talk about that. They seem to be OK with him giving interviews to the media, but not to the community.
Post edited February 05, 2017 by shmerl
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shmerl: I doubt that, since by that time they'll be working on some new hot project XYZ. That's how studios operate. The best case scenario would be them hiring new developers to port their old titles, or more likely, simply offloading it to subcontractors like Feral or VirtualProgramming. It's surprising they didn't do it already, which probably means that they are drifting in the direction of legacy publishers which ignore Linux. I.e. they want to be more like EA and Bethesda, and not like Devolver Digitial (who actively encourage Linux releases).

In this light, a more pressing question is not whether they'll work on TW3 again (unlikely), but whether they'll release CP2077 for Linux, or it will be another Windows locked release. A related question is, whether they are using Vulkan in it, or not. I didn't manage to get any info on that. CDPR don't publish anything about their work in progress and ignore all questions.
Ultimately I think it comes down to what they think the best business decisions are for them for their available manpower resources rather than some kind of good versus evil scenario. It really could go either way.

Now that you mention it though, personally I'd rather see them spend their resources making the next revision of the RedEngine fully cross platform and build their new game around that and have it release on all 3 major platforms all at once. If they do that, then what I'd like to see sometime in the future is for them to update The Witcher 3 to use the new version of the engine perhaps with some other goodies thrown into the mix, kind of like a "Special Edition Remaster" sort of thing. Those aren't always well received by gamers but I have a feeling that coming from CDPR the majority would receive it well so long as they did it well, and in general - they do things quite well IMHO so I'd trust them on it.

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shmerl: I tried contacting him for an interview about engine work and Linux in CDPR, but he was impossible to reach, and even people who tried to help me were rebuffed. CDPR apparently don't want anyone to talk about that. They seem to be OK with him giving interviews to the media, but not to the community.
He's available if you know where to look, but I don't think he is up for discussing details of the internal decision making strategies of CDPR, however he might be keen on discussing engine mechanics and stuff like that. There are some videos on Youtube of him discussing some of that as well which I found interesting.

He occasionally posts here in the forums but I don't think he reads or engages in the forums casually as he's a rather busy fellow from what I've gathered.
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skeletonbow: He's available if you know where to look, but I don't think he is up for discussing details of the internal decision making strategies of CDPR, however he might be keen on discussing engine mechanics and stuff like that. There are some videos on Youtube of him discussing some of that as well which I found interesting.
Well, I once tried to conduct a community Q&A about engine work of TW3, and collected quite a lot of questions from different people. We presented it to CDPR, and even some people inside there tried to connect me with Balázs Török. At first it went well, but then got halted, and they said they can't help with that. In the end I wasn't able to even reach him at all, let alone get any answers about engine and such.

And it looks like Tomasz Jonarski has left CDPR recently. He lists Vulkan as his expertise. No idea if they have any Vulkan developers left in the company. His new company is called "True Rebels". I wonder if it's a hint that CDPR isn't viewed as rebels anymore because of the above drift that I mentioned? Looking forward to more news on that.

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skeletonbow: personally I'd rather see them spend their resources making the next revision of the RedEngine fully cross platform and build their new game around that and have it release on all 3 major platforms all at once.
That's what I'd like to see as well, and a lot of people communicated this point to CDPR multiple times. But since their engine developers are impossible to reach, no one knows what views they have on this.
Post edited February 05, 2017 by shmerl
Feral Interactive is my last hope!!
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cr1ogen: Feral Interactive is my last hope!!
It's better to bet on Wine, not on Feral and CDPR at this point. We know Wine developers are working on DX11 support. What can't be said about CDPR being interested in keeping their original plans to release TW3 for Linux.
Post edited February 05, 2017 by shmerl
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shmerl: Well, I once tried to conduct a community Q&A about engine work of TW3, and collected quite a lot of questions from different people. We presented it to CDPR, and even some people inside there tried to connect me with Balázs Török. At first it went well, but then got halted, and they said they can't help with that. In the end I wasn't able to even reach him at all, let alone get any answers about engine and such.

And it looks like Tomasz Jonarski has left CDPR recently. He lists Vulkan as his expertise. No idea if they have any Vulkan developers left in the company. His new company is called "True Rebels". I wonder if it's a hint that CDPR isn't viewed as rebels anymore because of the above drift that I mentioned? Looking forward to more news on that.

That's what I'd like to see as well, and a lot of people communicated this point to CDPR multiple times. But since their engine developers are impossible to reach, no one knows what views they have on this.
From what I understand Feral does terrible ports. I'd rather personally see it done fully and properly by CDPR themselves directly than a crappy port, or not at all. A crappy port will just result in unsatisfied customers complaining that they should have done XYZ instead and probably low sales and bad reviews. Since the company's internal manifesto is that they want to be "the next Rockstar" so to speak, then they're more likely to make decisions like Rockstar would regarding quality etc. I doubt they'd offload a port to a 3rd party and give up control of their baby, while being seen as responsible and taking the blame for any flaws that might result. I think they're smarter than that and would rather have nothing than something half-assed. That's how I perceive the company anyway. :)

In fact, even if it took them 10 or more years to make a "10 year anniversary edition" or something, I'd rather wait it out and get something awesome than something rushed and lame just to make a buck and satiate the impatient (and fail).

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shmerl: It's better to bet on Wine, not on Feral and CDPR at this point. We know Wine developers are working on DX11 support. What can't be said about CDPR being interested in keeping their original plans to release TW3 for Linux.
I agree, Wine is probably the best bet going forward barring some public announcement from CDPR. I think we all ultimately know that any announcement or sudden product offering that is shown to be offloaded to a 3rd party is going to be met with a massive amount of scepticism by gamers and probably fail to deliver what people expect. Furthermore, it would most likely be a one-off and never get many if any bug fix updates, so if anything was broken it would likely remain broken. Then there are things like the Redkit mods et al as well to contend with. When 3rd parties do game ports they're often focused purely on the game, and no port of the game editor, map editor, mod tools or other stuff done, leaving the game only a partial solution.
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skeletonbow: From what I understand Feral does terrible ports.
I've never played any of them (they all seem to be Steam only), but from what I've heard - they are pretty good. But again, I can't speak from my experience here.

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skeletonbow: Since the company's internal manifesto is that they want to be "the next Rockstar" so to speak, then they're more likely to make decisions like Rockstar would regarding quality etc. I doubt they'd offload a port to a 3rd party and give up control of their baby, while being seen as responsible and taking the blame for any flaws that might result.
I'm not familiar with Rockstar (they seem to be console focused developers?), but CDPR themselves did that with The Witcher 2 and Virtual Programming. There was indeed quite some criticism, becasue initial release had poor performance. VP addressed it quite well, and fixed those issues. TW2 for Linux works very well now, besides some remaining Mesa bugs, which weren't really their fault (Mesa developers are gradually trying to fix those).

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skeletonbow: Then there are things like the Redkit mods et al as well to contend with. When 3rd parties do game ports they're often focused purely on the game, and no port of the game editor, map editor, mod tools or other stuff done, leaving the game only a partial solution.
RedKit / full editor isn't even available for the Witcher 3. CDPR intiailly tied its release to their plans to release their engine for others. But they abandoned them, and as well cancelled the editor (RedKit) release in result. May be this will change with CP2077.

But you do have a point there. For instance, they released RedKIt for TW2, but it was never ported by VP, so RedKit made mods for TW2 aren't usable with the Linux version of the game.
Post edited February 05, 2017 by shmerl
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skeletonbow: Since the company's internal manifesto is that they want to be "the next Rockstar" so to speak, then they're more likely to make decisions like Rockstar would regarding quality etc. I doubt they'd offload a port to a 3rd party and give up control of their baby, while being seen as responsible and taking the blame for any flaws that might result.
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shmerl: I'm not familiar with Rockstar (they seem to be console focused developers?), but CDPR themselves did that with The Witcher 2 and Virtual Programming. There was indeed quite some criticism, becasue initial release had poor performance. VP addressed it quite well, and fixed those issues. TW2 for Linux works very well now, besides some remaining Mesa bugs, which weren't really their fault (Mesa developers are gradually trying to fix those).
Rockstar Games are the creators of the Grand Theft Auto franchise among various other popular games. GTA is one of the top selling games of all time. CDPR has mentioned in interviews that they would like to be like Rockstar in terms of success.

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skeletonbow: Then there are things like the Redkit mods et al as well to contend with. When 3rd parties do game ports they're often focused purely on the game, and no port of the game editor, map editor, mod tools or other stuff done, leaving the game only a partial solution.
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shmerl: RedKit / full editor isn't even available for the Witcher 3. CDPR intiailly tied its release to their plans to release their engine for others. But they abandoned them, and as well cancelled the editor (RedKit) release in result. May be this will change with CP2077.

But you do have a point there. For instance, they released RedKIt for TW2, but it was never ported by VP, so RedKit made mods for TW2 aren't usable with the Linux version of the game.
My mention of game editors and other items was meant in general rather than specific to The Witcher games. Isn't TW2 for Linux a lame Winelib port or something like that? ISTR people clamouring for a "real" port of the game unless I'm confused.

One game I've heard bad things about the Linux port was Alien Isolation which is missing several features from what I understand. It was done by Feral Interactive. They were likely not contracted to port the stuff that is missing however.
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skeletonbow: Rockstar Games are the creators of the Grand Theft Auto franchise among various other popular games. GTA is one of the top selling games of all time. CDPR has mentioned in interviews that they would like to be like Rockstar in terms of success.
I see. I just wasn't familiar with the name of the studio. All their games seem to be DRMed, so not my cup of tea.

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skeletonbow: My mention of game editors and other items was meant in general rather than specific to The Witcher games. Isn't TW2 for Linux a lame Winelib port or something like that?
You are mixing it up with the first MacOS version of TW1. TW2 for Linux uses eON wrapper from VP. The way such games work is similar to Wine, except they do static translation, rather than dynamic. I.e. Wine redirects calls at runtime, and translates Windows API into Linux equivalent functionality. Static translation on the other hand uses the source code, so it can be more focused and less generic. That's what Feral do as well. I'd say it performs pretty well. Of course it's still not a normal engine rewrite. But it's clearly a cheap way to make such a port.
Post edited February 05, 2017 by shmerl
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shmerl: I see. I just wasn't familiar with the name of the studio. All their games seem to be DRMed, so not my cup of tea.
Indeed, from GTA4 onward and presumably any other games made in the same timeframe they are heavily DRM encumbered. Moreso than any other game publisher that I've encountered as well. GTA San Andreas and previous games are all DRM-free or some form of non-intrusive DRM that I haven't noticed though. I have a feeling that DRM isn't one of the things CDPR aspires to copy from Rockstar Games mind you. :oP
I am also waiting for CD Projekt Red to remind Linux users and to port Witcher 3 for Linux! When will it come? We hate to wait! ;)
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skeletonbow: From what I understand Feral does terrible ports.
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shmerl: I've never played any of them (they all seem to be Steam only), but from what I've heard - they are pretty good. But again, I can't speak from my experience here.

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skeletonbow: Since the company's internal manifesto is that they want to be "the next Rockstar" so to speak, then they're more likely to make decisions like Rockstar would regarding quality etc. I doubt they'd offload a port to a 3rd party and give up control of their baby, while being seen as responsible and taking the blame for any flaws that might result.
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shmerl: I'm not familiar with Rockstar (they seem to be console focused developers?), but CDPR themselves did that with The Witcher 2 and Virtual Programming. There was indeed quite some criticism, becasue initial release had poor performance. VP addressed it quite well, and fixed those issues. TW2 for Linux works very well now, besides some remaining Mesa bugs, which weren't really their fault (Mesa developers are gradually trying to fix those).
I 've played port from Feral. Tomb Rider, Deus Ex MD, Grid Auto Sport, Alien Isolation, Shadow of Mordor, XCOM Enemy Unknown, and Life is Strange, And I must say that they are well made.
Here is the list of all games they had ported https://www.feralinteractive.com/es/linux-games/
Sorry for my English, I speak spanish xD