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PookaMustard: Satoru is a Steam mod. NO WONDER he keeps pushing through with his arguments, hmmmmmmmmmmmm.

It's also worth noting that in the thread where he admits he's a Steam moderator, the OP (who had his account banned because he claims to have reported an exploit which he tested to actually provide info about it) said "I just want my subsriptions to be restored." to which satoru responded:

"You should have thought about that in the DOZENS of interactions and warning you got from Steam. That ship has sailed."

Obviously if I call Wal-Mart's customer support and make their lives hell (for good reason or not), and eventually they ban me from Wal-Mart entirely, they can't really enter my house and take away all the stuff I bought from them. However, guess what exactly caused the OP to lose his subscriptions, meaning all his games and software?

Oh yes, that's DRM for you. Satoru keeps alleging Steam is not DRM, when in fact, the mere thought that the OP had his subscriptions revoked and thus absolutely no way to access them again is a staple of DRM - something satoru himself says the OP should have thought about. If Steam is not DRM, why would he need to think about it? The products would continue to work fine in OP's case, but they don't, because guess what...? Steam is DRM.

But who cares about that now. Satoru has been ousted as biased towards Steam. No, not the kind of "GOG customer is biased towards GOG" but rather "this Steam defender ACTUALLY moderates it!" It also kind of muddies the waters even further on the OP's case (who of those responding to him actually have an interest in Steam and silencing dissent for the company?). It's pretty clear now that there's absolutely no wiggle room to reason with him.
Stop lying, Satoru is not a moderator. If he was, he would be in Orange on Steam forums, in which he is not.
https://steamcommunity.com/discussions/forum/0/1843566500509186418/#c1843566500509685555

Also, for the games that are DRM free on Steam, you don't lose access to those games that are installed on your computer since you can simply run the game without Steam. GoG can even take games away from your account, prevent you from getting access to your games on your account if they found you to be going against the EULA in some way.
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eisberg77: That is because you believed a lie, hook line and sinker without even verifying it yourself. he is no moderator

Satoru is not a moderator. If he was, he would be in Orange on Steam forums, in which he is not.
I did verify it myself. See him here (with same avatar as in your link as of 25th Feb 2019), locking a thread (as only Moderators can do) with a nice orange coloured name and that 5 pointed star to the right of his name (which if you hover your mouse over says "Moderator"):-
https://steamcommunity.com/app/262060/discussions/0/3247562523089319657/?ctp=8#c1796278072844476594

The reason he's showing up white in some forums is because they're the ones he doesn't moderate in. Obviously if you cherry pick one post from those (as you have), you can make him look like a normal user. However, he is a Moderator on others with a post history of 56,046 entries spread over 2,803 pages. Want two more of many other examples?

https://steamcommunity.com/app/392110/discussions/0/1796278072841822729/?ctp=2#c1841314700696055575

https://steamcommunity.com/app/262060/discussions/0/1796278072833116531/#c1796278072833372228

So, that guy who spends his time posting "Steam's DRM is not DRM" in every topic about DRM on GOG forums is indeed a verified Steam Moderator, so you might want to edit those "alternative fact" posts of yours where you call everyone else a "liar" - for speaking the truth... ;-)
Post edited February 27, 2019 by AB2012
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eisberg77: Nope, you are confusing that with delivery. Again, using your logic, GoG is DRM as well since a web browser and a log in is required to get the content delivered to you.
As AB2012 has stated already, delivery is a core part of the definition of DRM. By your logic, Netflix is not a DRM'd service, because if you ignore the way the video and audio is delivered, it magically becomes "not DRM."

This kind of logic wouldn't even fly in Wonderland!

Of course the delivery counts in the process. The delivery is the entire bread and butter of Hollywood's protections, since the entire movie has to be decrypted in the end to be consumed - so where do the protections take place? Of course, it's every single step of the way until the pixels and the audio are decoded and played back.

Think of it this way. Your Steam client is required to download a game. If it isn't DRM, why can't we download using a regular browser? Of course, it's because Steam also has to do the whole delivery shtick. And again, it's also extraneous software, which in the case of the "DRM-free" games you're fighting for, shouldn't be required to exist at all.

I'm not going to bother with you from this point onwards. If you still believe Steam is not DRM because "if you believe it is, you also believe that the web browser you chose to download your games from GOG are also DRM'd" then you're plainly and openly shooting yourself in the foot repeatedly.
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eisberg77: Nope. Sorry, you are still wrong. It literally does not matter what has to be done to get the files to your computer, DRM has never ever meant anything to do with delivery at all..
No, this is completely wrong and made up to justify steam not being DRM.

HDMI is a means of delivering media to your screen. It has HDCP DRM. So does Displayport for that matter. They have literally no other purpose than to deliver content to a screen. They have absolutely explicitly acknowledged DRM.

HDCP and similar techs are why the definition of DRM includes control of distribution as well. You cannot choose to exclude delivery from games, that as I said is Special Pleading that games and steam are a unique case; they clearly are not.
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eisberg77: snip
"STEAM is a digital distribution platform developed by Valve Corporation since 2003. Every STEAM game includes the STEAMWORKS SDK which has a built-in DRM. However the DRM is considered weak by scene groups who are able to crack it within a few hours of the game release."
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STEAM is making my hair frizzy and hard to manage!
I just want to play the game. So Steam or not .....
Either way, more and more games needs online con.
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Pheace: I could've sworn the point being made above was that using Steamworks features somehow required using the DRM feature as well but if not then I was mistaken. Steamworks can be implemented without the DRM, that was my point.
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AB2012: Yes I know they can and all of 5% of games do that. Perhaps there was some miscommunication there as we're not disagreeing on the existence of those games. The point I was making was in response to someone (who turns out to be an Active Steam Moderator) keeps advocating that Steam is simply a misunderstood victim and it's all the devs fault that Steam's DRM is being used, when Steam themselves openly advocate using it on the Steamworks developer pages ("The Steam DRM wrapper is an important part of Steam platform", "The Steam wrapper can and should be used in combination with other DRM solutions", etc). If GOG Moderators started sh*t-posting half the same stuff over on the Steam forums, they'd have been banned for "trolling" long ago...
GOG's "indifference" is it's strength. lol
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Pheace: I could've sworn the point being made above was that using Steamworks features somehow required using the DRM feature as well but if not then I was mistaken. Steamworks can be implemented without the DRM, that was my point.
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AB2012: Yes I know they can and all of 5% of games do that. Perhaps there was some miscommunication there as we're not disagreeing on the existence of those games. The point I was making was in response to someone (who turns out to be an Active Steam Moderator) keeps advocating that Steam is simply a misunderstood victim and it's all the devs fault that Steam's DRM is being used, when Steam themselves openly advocate using it on the Steamworks developer pages ("The Steam DRM wrapper is an important part of Steam platform", "The Steam wrapper can and should be used in combination with other DRM solutions", etc). If GOG Moderators started sh*t-posting half the same stuff over on the Steam forums, they'd have been banned for "trolling" long ago...
*sigh* you really dont actually understand anything do you

1) Steam is not DRM , if it was then it would be functionally impossible to make DRM free games on steam
2) Steamworks is not DRM. If t was DRM it would be impossible for Larian to make their steam games 100% DRM free
3) you can integrate literally every steamworks feature and be 100% drm free as proven by Larian Studios games.

Ergo your argument should not be "steam is drm"

You should say "Hey devs make your games like Larian and make them DRM free".

Most devs dont know this is possible. They actually don't use CEG. They simply integrate the steamworks API. They don't care about DRM because they don't use CEG. They're just putting their game on the dominant platform.

If you want DRM free gaming to take hold. The best strategy is to appeal to devs, on steam, the dominant platform, to make them DRM free. And educate them that this is possible. This does two things

1) It means devs know that drm free gaming is possible on steam
2) it means devs now dont look at GOG and go 'omg another build' they go "oh i just dump my steam build on gog and iim done that's easy"

DRM free has a supply problem because developers think steamworks means they cant make the game drm free.

Educate devs that this is not a problem and you will get more DRM free games in general.

Like I"m giving you the strategy to HELP YOU get more DRM free games. Which means more DRM free games on GOG. Its sort of bizarre that you don't see the big picture of what damage "steam is drm" does to DRM gaming because it perpetuates misinformation and further marginalizes DRM free gaming.
FCK DRM. FCK STEAM. FCK FANBOIS. ;p
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and what if im satisfied with the service they offer?

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Breja: I would have absolutely no problem with you and darth letting yourselves get screwed over out of your customer rights in exchange for shiny steam games, but unfortunately when the vast majority of gamers does so, all the gamers get screwed over by Steam's resulting near-monopoly and shitty DRMs pervading the industry. In short - You have negative moral highground for telling people to fuck off.
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DadJoke007: I'm with you regarding how toxic DRM is, I'm just having a hard time with this DRM-free purity contest. If someone wants to buy some platform exclusive game with their hard earned money I wont throw shit at them because they're not 100% pure. If they buy DRM-free whenever they have that choice, I'm more than happy to call that person my "ally".

Their money, their choice.
what a Heretic you are for not fighting against Evil Gaben whos swirling his evil moustache in his conquest to destroy gaming with his EVIIIIIL schemes! Burn the heretic!!!!

*sarcasm off*


anti drm crusaders really need to calm down a bit because some of them are really becoming silly..
Post edited February 28, 2019 by Zetikla
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satoru: Its sort of bizarre that you don't see the big picture of what damage "steam is drm" does to DRM gaming because it perpetuates misinformation and further marginalizes DRM free gaming.
Can you stop, Steam Moderator?

"Steam is not DRM" is the ultimate kind of misinformation that exists in this topic. How it even went out of the door is a mystery. The thing was developed as DRM for Half-Life 2. In its store days, more likely than not the game you run will require the client open (and ask you for a login), if that's not the job of DRM, what do you call it?

So Larian proves to be the exception rather than the norm. Great enough. Do they say clearly on the Steam page of their games that the games ARE DRM-free and GUARANTEED to be DRM-free? Let me guess: they don't. Many devs with DRM-free games on the platform don't put up a sign saying they are DRM-free.

2) it means devs now dont look at GOG and go 'omg another build' they go "oh i just dump my steam build on gog and iim done that's easy"
I'm pretty sure they can always find one excuse or another to spout just the same crap as you're doing. I'm pretty sure that doesn't resolve the issue of updates not being delivered.

So look, Steam Moderator. Your platform doesn't have any guarantees that a DRM-free game would remain DRM-free. To outsiders looking at a game's store page, you are only told if the thing uses third-party DRM, like Denuvo, but where's the first-party DRM? Oh wait, it's not listed. What does your platform do to help DRM-free games get a leg over GOG in general? A grand total of N. O. T. H. I. N. G.

Please come back to us when daddy Valve takes that feedback and starts highlighting or displaying which games are DRM-free and let us download them without their client. Until then, your attempts at getting us to shoot our foot are miserable failures.
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satoru: Its sort of bizarre that you don't see the big picture of what damage "steam is drm" does to DRM gaming because it perpetuates misinformation and further marginalizes DRM free gaming.
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PookaMustard: Can you stop, Steam Moderator?

"Steam is not DRM" is the ultimate kind of misinformation that exists in this topic. How it even went out of the door is a mystery. The thing was developed as DRM for Half-Life 2. In its store days, more likely than not the game you run will require the client open (and ask you for a login), if that's not the job of DRM, what do you call it?

So Larian proves to be the exception rather than the norm. Great enough. Do they say clearly on the Steam page of their games that the games ARE DRM-free and GUARANTEED to be DRM-free? Let me guess: they don't. Many devs with DRM-free games on the platform don't put up a sign saying they are DRM-free.

2) it means devs now dont look at GOG and go 'omg another build' they go "oh i just dump my steam build on gog and iim done that's easy"
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PookaMustard: I'm pretty sure they can always find one excuse or another to spout just the same crap as you're doing. I'm pretty sure that doesn't resolve the issue of updates not being delivered.

So look, Steam Moderator. Your platform doesn't have any guarantees that a DRM-free game would remain DRM-free. To outsiders looking at a game's store page, you are only told if the thing uses third-party DRM, like Denuvo, but where's the first-party DRM? Oh wait, it's not listed. What does your platform do to help DRM-free games get a leg over GOG in general? A grand total of N. O. T. H. I. N. G.

Please come back to us when daddy Valve takes that feedback and starts highlighting or displaying which games are DRM-free and let us download them without their client. Until then, your attempts at getting us to shoot our foot are miserable failures.
he is not a steam moderator tho

i swear all those almighty gog crusaders really are scraping the bottom of the barrel in terms of acting like little kids


come back when you can manage to debate like an adult without using kindergarden level of insults
Post edited February 28, 2019 by Zetikla
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But okay, let's humor your arguments for a bit.
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satoru: 1) Steam is not DRM , if it was then it would be functionally impossible to make DRM free games on steam
2) Steamworks is not DRM. If t was DRM it would be impossible for Larian to make their steam games 100% DRM free
3) you can integrate literally every steamworks feature and be 100% drm free as proven by Larian Studios games.

Ergo your argument should not be "steam is drm"
Let's assume the argument right now ceases to be "steam is DRM" Let's continue with what you're saying.

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satoru: You should say "Hey devs make your games like Larian and make them DRM free".
Okay, that is great. We tell a random dev to make their games like Larian and make them DRM-free.................................................................from what exactly?

If Steam isn't DRM, then what is the DRM the random dev is using then!? And yes, let's assume crap like Denuvo or Uplay or whatever are omitted from this thing. If Steam isn't DRM so badly, then what is the DRM these developers need to remove from their Steam versions of games?

Of course, if you believed the fact that Steam is DRM, you would be able to tell them "yes, remove the Steam DRM and offer it on GOG." Alas, you believe Steam isn't DRM somehow, and yet ask us to go ask devs to make their games DRM-free? How does that work in Wonderland?
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PookaMustard: But okay, let's humor your arguments for a bit.
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satoru: 1) Steam is not DRM , if it was then it would be functionally impossible to make DRM free games on steam
2) Steamworks is not DRM. If t was DRM it would be impossible for Larian to make their steam games 100% DRM free
3) you can integrate literally every steamworks feature and be 100% drm free as proven by Larian Studios games.

Ergo your argument should not be "steam is drm"
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PookaMustard: Let's assume the argument right now ceases to be "steam is DRM" Let's continue with what you're saying.

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satoru: You should say "Hey devs make your games like Larian and make them DRM free".
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PookaMustard: Okay, that is great. We tell a random dev to make their games like Larian and make them DRM-free.................................................................from what exactly?

If Steam isn't DRM, then what is the DRM the random dev is using then!? And yes, let's assume crap like Denuvo or Uplay or whatever are omitted from this thing. If Steam isn't DRM so badly, then what is the DRM these developers need to remove from their Steam versions of games?

Of course, if you believed the fact that Steam is DRM, you would be able to tell them "yes, remove the Steam DRM and offer it on GOG." Alas, you believe Steam isn't DRM somehow, and yet ask us to go ask devs to make their games DRM-free? How does that work in Wonderland?
by default steam games barely use the CEG and maybe the steam wrapper AFAIK, thats it.

its a very basic low level"DRM" and after that its up to the devs if they want to add stuff like third party account auth/ Denuvo/ VMWARE etc.

Thats the only thing a dev has to ideally remove of their games for the GOG version, namely so that the game doesnt opens the steam client and so on. Although many games on Steam are even less dependent of the main client as is you can freely move the distributables around and it still will work.
Post edited February 28, 2019 by Zetikla