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tinyE:
Aww, it's a rabbit with a pastry on it's head. That's awesome!
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AB2012: 1) "Unless 100% of games use x available disliked feature that a client provides for most games sold through it then you can't criticise x feature or the client that enables it to be rolled out large scale" is a total straw-man non-argument. A client could also handle payment management for in-game micro-transactions & lootboxes and guess what - people are "allowed" to criticise the store-front / client used for making it easier for devs to roll out large-scale hostile monetization too without requiring 100% of games the store sells having MT's in them for criticism of the games that do to be valid.

2) "Unless 100% of all games on Steam use Steam's DRM created by Steam for the Steam client, then the Steam client that manages Steam's DRM has nothing to do with Steam's DRM. No siree...". As I said, this is just empty word-game trolling and "bait and switching" the usual (entirely valid) DRM argument "it's not good for the gaming industry or long-term game preservation for DRM to be normalized to the extent of 95% of titles" to something else "Hey since you can still buy The Tale of Doris and the Dragon on Steam DRM-Free, let's steer the whole discussion onto being about only those kinds of titles that aren't affected, and away from all the 95% that are!"
1) Never said that. Strawman

2) Never said that either. Strawman.

Let me make my position as simple as can be understood:

If game exists without DRM on a storefront that is apparently DRM, the storefront is not inherently DRM.

Simple. As. That.

You cannot refute this simple fact and are dancing around it, accusing me of strawmen when you are doing that samething yourself.
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kusumahendra: If you use Linux, you will support steam. Say what you want, but valve support for Linux community is unmatched by anyone. By making proton Valve pays wine developers to improve it's compatibility.
Unfortunately, you're perfectly right.
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AB2012: 1) "Unless 100% of games use x available disliked feature that a client provides for most games sold through it then you can't criticise x feature or the client that enables it to be rolled out large scale" is a total straw-man non-argument. A client could also handle payment management for in-game micro-transactions & lootboxes and guess what - people are "allowed" to criticise the store-front / client used for making it easier for devs to roll out large-scale hostile monetization too without requiring 100% of games the store sells having MT's in them for criticism of the games that do to be valid.

2) "Unless 100% of all games on Steam use Steam's DRM created by Steam for the Steam client, then the Steam client that manages Steam's DRM has nothing to do with Steam's DRM. No siree...". As I said, this is just empty word-game trolling and "bait and switching" the usual (entirely valid) DRM argument "it's not good for the gaming industry or long-term game preservation for DRM to be normalized to the extent of 95% of titles" to something else "Hey since you can still buy The Tale of Doris and the Dragon on Steam DRM-Free, let's steer the whole discussion onto being about only those kinds of titles that aren't affected, and away from all the 95% that are!"
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lumengloriosum: 1) Never said that. Strawman

2) Never said that either. Strawman.

Let me make my position as simple as can be understood:

If game exists without DRM on a storefront that is apparently DRM, the storefront is not inherently DRM.

Simple. As. That.

You cannot refute this simple fact and are dancing around it, accusing me of strawmen when you are doing that samething yourself.
No. Steam has its own DRM. Not only 3rd-party DRM.
https://www.techradar.com/news/epic-games-store-vs-steam-battle-of-the-online-stores

"On Steam, DRM is set in stone: you buy a game, and you need to have Steam open to run it. If you don’t have an internet connection, that’s fine, because Steam has an offline mode. "
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Sebatrox: No. Steam has its own DRM. Not only 3rd-party DRM.
https://www.techradar.com/news/epic-games-store-vs-steam-battle-of-the-online-stores

"On Steam, DRM is set in stone: you buy a game, and you need to have Steam open to run it. If you don’t have an internet connection, that’s fine, because Steam has an offline mode. "
And as I have replied to you a few times, and the point has been made to you a few times now, not just by me but Amok too...

Steam sells games that do not require Steam to run, inherently contradictory to what DRM actually is.

Thus, if I wanted to sell my game on Steam, I can choose the DRM Free option they provide, meaning inhrerently it is not DRM unless the DRM is activated.

I have made points on this, and none have been refuted.

As to the quote, like I said, try launching Darkest Hour or Majesty HD without Steam. It works.

Now I wonder, have you ever used Steam at all with an old game?
The "there are some, relatively very few, DRM-free (sort of) games on Steam (that you still have to download with the obligatory client), a store that provides it's own DRM as well as supports whatever 3rd party shit you bother to name" argument is like drinking diet coke with your double cheesburger with triple serving of fries and mayo and claiming you're eating healthy.
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jjglvz: MAKE ME
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tinyE:
A bunny pankace. Yummy!!!
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Sebatrox: No. Steam has its own DRM. Not only 3rd-party DRM.
https://www.techradar.com/news/epic-games-store-vs-steam-battle-of-the-online-stores

"On Steam, DRM is set in stone: you buy a game, and you need to have Steam open to run it. If you don’t have an internet connection, that’s fine, because Steam has an offline mode. "
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lumengloriosum: And as I have replied to you a few times, and the point has been made to you a few times now, not just by me but Amok too...

Steam sells games that do not require Steam to run, inherently contradictory to what DRM actually is.

Thus, if I wanted to sell my game on Steam, I can choose the DRM Free option they provide, meaning inhrerently it is not DRM unless the DRM is activated.

I have made points on this, and none have been refuted.

As to the quote, like I said, try launching Darkest Hour or Majesty HD without Steam. It works.

Now I wonder, have you ever used Steam at all with an old game?
"Steam sells games that do not require Steam to run, inherently contradictory to what DRM actually is. "

I don't care if few games are DRM Free, if 97% of all games on Steam have DRM.
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lumengloriosum: And as I have replied to you a few times, and the point has been made to you a few times now, not just by me but Amok too...

Steam sells games that do not require Steam to run, inherently contradictory to what DRM actually is.

Thus, if I wanted to sell my game on Steam, I can choose the DRM Free option they provide, meaning inhrerently it is not DRM unless the DRM is activated.

I have made points on this, and none have been refuted.

As to the quote, like I said, try launching Darkest Hour or Majesty HD without Steam. It works.

Now I wonder, have you ever used Steam at all with an old game?
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Sebatrox: "Steam sells games that do not require Steam to run, inherently contradictory to what DRM actually is. "

I don't care if few games are DRM Free, if 97% of all games on Steam have DRM.
And I don't care for your response.

Fact is Fact, you cannot rebuke it, disprove it, or go against the arguments made.

If a game exists on Steam that does not require Steam, Steam doesn't function as DRM.

Simple. As. That.

Good Day.
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lumengloriosum: Fact is Fact, you cannot rebuke it, disprove it, or go against the arguments made.
Oh, sure. Because you said so.
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lumengloriosum: Fact is Fact, you cannot rebuke it, disprove it, or go against the arguments made.
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Sebatrox: Oh, sure. Because you said so.
No, because Steam itself shows so.

Because Objectively, irrelevant of me or you, Steam sells games without DRM, contradicting the definitions of what DRM is for, showing that DRM on Steam is optional thus concluding the minimum level of Steam is not DRM.

Prove me wrong.
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PookaMustard: On Origin, Dosbox games are DRM'd. I am not kidding, I checked this myself with SimCity 2000 there. So just because they use either utility, doesn't really mean it's free of DRM.
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Pond86: Its not. I've just tried it and it runs fine without Origin.
You need to move it to another PC/play it on a virtual machine/another system and you'll run into a window asking you for a CD key or email, and of course it doesn't work offline. It's one of those really sneaky kinds of DRM.
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lumengloriosum: No, because Steam itself shows so.
where?
https://partner.steamgames.com/doc/features/drm
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lumengloriosum: No, because Steam itself shows so.
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Sebatrox: where?
https://partner.steamgames.com/doc/features/drm
I suggest not wasting your time with him. He's just gonna dance around the issue and continue dismissing our point of views in the pursuit of convincing virtually nobody here.
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lumengloriosum: No, because Steam itself shows so.
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Sebatrox: where?
https://partner.steamgames.com/doc/features/drm
https://steam.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_DRM-free_games

There.
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PookaMustard: I suggest not wasting your time with him. He's just gonna dance around the issue and continue dismissing our point of views in the pursuit of convincing virtually nobody here.
Feel free to dance around the above.
Post edited February 18, 2019 by lumengloriosum