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tfishell: "Quick question: is Steam DRM?" *discussion and argument continues until the end of time*
They always make such black and white questions.

"Can Steam be used as DRM?" -Yes
"Are games forced to use Steam as DRM?" -No
"Can my game by DRM-Free on Steam?" -Yes

If all developers/publishers decided to drop DRM on Steam tomorrow, Steam would be DRM-Free.

What should worry some more is, if it ever got off the ground, if people ever started to massively refuse to buy games with DRM (they won't), I'd be very worried for GOG because Steam could and probably would make that transition rather swiftly and GOG would lose what still makes them unique.
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tbh one of the reasons DRM existing is to combat piracy, which its done nothing aginst you can stil lsearch online for latest titles like metro exodus, black ops 4 etc those are just examples i dnt play either of those games. hell i could pirate sniper elite 2 if i wanted to and not have steam installed but id rather wait til its on GOG cos rebellion are actually good devs.

the only thing worse than DRM is the diseased sports games by EA who literally never update there sports games with features just update the roster cos people buy into that ultimate team shit. and i bet EA are raking it in with there new apex legends game, i mean i get there a busniess and out ot make money, fine but its the way they go about doing that i have issues with
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tfishell: "Quick question: is Steam DRM?" *discussion and argument continues until the end of time*
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Pheace: They always make such black and white questions.

"Can Steam be used as DRM?" -Yes
"Are games forced to use Steam as DRM?" -No
"Can my game by DRM-Free on Steam?" -Yes

If all developers/publishers decided to drop DRM on Steam tomorrow, Steam would be DRM-Free.

What should worry some more is, if it ever got off the ground, if people ever started to massively refuse to buy games with DRM (they won't), I'd be very worried for GOG because Steam could and probably would make that transition rather swiftly and GOG would lose what still makes them unique.
if i cant download an offline installer for a DRM free game on steam trechnically it isnt DRM free is it cos i stil lneed to have steam to play it
Post edited February 17, 2019 by moobot83
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moobot83: if i cant download an offline installer for a DRM free game on steam trechnically it isnt DRM free is it cos i stil lneed to have steam to play it
As long as you can zip it up (or not), move it to another computer and play it this is blatantly false. An installer is just a luxury, it's not required for a game to be DRM-Free.
Post edited February 17, 2019 by Pheace
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ChrisGamer300: There where GOGmixes in the past which showed the games that needed Galaxy, i haven't actually checked the second citizen thread but maybe that one also count these things now.
Thanks, it's a shame the GOGmixes disappeared.
I arrived to this world without anything. i'm leaving this world without anything.
Most likely it is my only life.
I may be allowed to carry my memories to "the other side".
Memories of a life in which i had fun.

So I am going to play metro exodus. And it will be EPIC!!
Post edited February 17, 2019 by Paraharaha
Blaming Steam for offering DRM features, but it's the software developers & gaming companies that actually choose to use them.

Any company that is paranoid enough to take full advantage of Steam's DRM features is likely to develop their own system if they decide to part from Steam anyway. Bring back the individual clients for each game I say. Let the gaming companies develop their own DRM strategies! Let's bring back physical copies and secureROM too! lol.
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moobot83: im being down rated for saying the truth
Welcome to GOG forums.
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AB2012: a mere 6.5% of games on Steam are DRM-Free) plus no offline installers for those hardly makes the platform as a whole "Steam is DRM-Free like GOG!" either without an exceptionally dishonest level of False Equivalence logical fallacies, mental acrobatics and silly word games involved.
Translation: My opponent is either stupid, or dishonest.

Fact: Steam sells games that does not require Steam to run. Thus objectively Steam does not function as DRM.
Fact: Steam/Valve's Ecosystem allows DRM Free games within its Ecosystem. Defeating the point of a DRM Ecosystem.
Fact: Steam/Valve does allow DRM for games that use Steam, that is the Publisher/Developer's discretion.

Simply put, even if it's only 6.5% of games, that 6.5% functions objectively independently of the Steam so-called DRM platform that people put forward.

Simply concluding, Steam does not function as DRM unless it's DRM functions are put in place.

This means tomorrow, if I wanted to sell a DRM Free game, I could do so on Steam.
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moobot83: love how im being down rated for saying the truth if you guys love steam so much why are you on GOG
No, it's not for telling the truth. It's for forcing this truth as absolute.

I hate DRM and don't like steam, but i will never tell someone to stop play or buy some games because of that.
Post edited February 17, 2019 by M3troid
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moobot83: if i cant download an offline installer for a DRM free game on steam trechnically it isnt DRM free is it cos i stil lneed to have steam to play it
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Pheace: As long as you can zip it up (or not), move it to another computer and play it this is blatantly false. An installer is just a luxury, it's not required for a game to be DRM-Free.
tbh i bet steam thought about this and have put some sort of lock on the game they have there, or requiring specific files for gfames to run which only come with the steam client
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AB2012: a mere 6.5% of games on Steam are DRM-Free) plus no offline installers for those hardly makes the platform as a whole "Steam is DRM-Free like GOG!" either without an exceptionally dishonest level of False Equivalence logical fallacies, mental acrobatics and silly word games involved.
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lumengloriosum: Translation: My opponent is either stupid, or dishonest.

Fact: Steam sells games that does not require Steam to run. Thus objectively Steam does not function as DRM.
Fact: Steam/Valve's Ecosystem allows DRM Free games within its Ecosystem. Defeating the point of a DRM Ecosystem.
Fact: Steam/Valve does allow DRM for games that use Steam, that is the Publisher/Developer's discretion.

Simply put, even if it's only 6.5% of games, that 6.5% functions objectively independently of the Steam so-called DRM platform that people put forward.

Simply concluding, Steam does not function as DRM unless it's DRM functions are put in place.

This means tomorrow, if I wanted to sell a DRM Free game, I could do so on Steam.
https://blackshellmedia.com/2017/06/28/steam-employs-drm-means-game/

[i] "How Steam Employs DRM

Valve takes the fight against piracy very seriously. In fact, their objective is to lock down “zero day” pirates—players who pirate games between the time when a game goes gold and when it’s available for purchase. Valve’s Doug Lombardi has even been quoted saying that he believes well over 50 percent of piracy occurs during that time. To help fight this, he’s dedicated to creating a good authentication system, which doesn’t stand in the way of customers enjoying what they bought.

So, the question is how does Steam handle DRM and fight piracy? Well, while Steam does function as a form of DRM, it’s pretty light compared to other the forms that older players remember dealing with on the PC games of yore.

Developers who choose to not forego Steam’s piracy protection are contributing to the elements of DRM that players love to complain about online. When players open one of these games, Steam launches along with it. If they want to run the game on another machine, they have to do it with that same account. Although the games can run on as many machines as players want, they will always be account-bound. That means no two people can play the same game at a time, whether they’re playing online or offline.

The DRM system works with three primary approaches to anti-piracy: custom executable generation, retail encryption, and valuable platform-dependent features. This means your game is account-bound thanks to CEG protection, is protected during day-one releases by shipping encrypted media to stores worldwide, and is published alongside platform-dependent features that pirates simply cannot keep up with, such as constant updates, Steam Achievements, Steam Cloud, and more." [/i]
Post edited February 17, 2019 by Sebatrox
This kind of discussion tend to surface periodically, but never ever leads to anything more but insults and -finally- the closure of the thread.

Whenever a game with Denuvo (or whatever the next big DRM-scheme will be) gets released - people call for a boycott.

Whenever a game demands to be played "always-online" - people call for a boycott.

Whenever a game gets released by a dev with questionable character traits - people call for a boycott.

Whenever a new online-store/platform opens its gates - people call for a boycott.

Whenever a game gets released exclusive on a certain platform - people call for a boycott.

Whenever a new game in a series gets released by a new dev and it's too far away from the old games - people call for a boycott.

Etc.,...

The fun fact that most people never seem to get is: the vast majority of gamers - and with that I mean THE VAST MAJORITY of gamers - never joins the forums and chatrooms where these calls to boycott are made.

THE VAST MAJORITY of gamers just buys, installs and (hopefully) enjoys their games.

Without even ever noticing that some people in some online forums think their new and (hopefully) enjoyable piece of entertainment software should be boycotted.

People in online forums should finally reach the conclusion that - if they're lucky - they may reach a few hundred, or maybe a few thousand likeminded users.

That's only hundreds or thousands of several tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands, if not even millions of potentially buyers globally.

And of those few hundred (or thousand) that they can reach, there are at least 50% with a different opinion than theirs right from the start.

People in online forums are nothing but a single drop of peppermint tea in the ocean.

And their chance on changing other people's buying habits, is exactly as huge as the chance of this single drop of peppermint tea's, to turn the whole ocean into peppermint tea.

Which is: zero, zilch, null, nonexistent.

And please spare me with "silence is compliance" etc.

None of us here is in a position where we could actually change anything in the gaming market.

THE MAJORITY sets the course. And they do it by purchasing what they want.

If you believe that you (= a minority) could change anything, simply by not purchasing...I have a nice bridge to sell, that you can decide not to buy. ;)
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Sebatrox: A) "How Steam Employs DRM

Valve takes the fight against piracy very seriously. In fact, their objective is to lock down “zero day” pirates—players who pirate games between the time when a game goes gold and when it’s available for purchase. Valve’s Doug Lombardi has even been quoted saying that he believes well over 50 percent of piracy occurs during that time. To help fight this, he’s dedicated to creating a good authentication system, which doesn’t stand in the way of customers enjoying what they bought.

So, the question is how does Steam handle DRM and fight piracy? Well, while Steam does function as a form of DRM, it’s pretty light compared to other the forms that older players remember dealing with on the PC games of yore.

B) Developers who choose to not forego Steam’s piracy protection are contributing to the elements of DRM that players love to complain about online. When players open one of these games, Steam launches along with it. If they want to run the game on another machine, they have to do it with that same account. Although the games can run on as many machines as players want, they will always be account-bound. That means no two people can play the same game at a time, whether they’re playing online or offline.

C) The DRM system works with three primary approaches to anti-piracy: custom executable generation, retail encryption, and valuable platform-dependent features. This means your game is account-bound thanks to CEG protection, is protected during day-one releases by shipping encrypted media to stores worldwide, and is published alongside platform-dependent features that pirates simply cannot keep up with, such as constant updates, Steam Achievements, Steam Cloud, and more." [/i]
A) If they use the DRM system, yes.

B) False, Developers who choose Steam's piracy protection are more likely to go for aggressive piracy protection if... Wait for it... The anti-piracy measures fail. Steam's has and does fail, now Denuvo is added on top of Steam, then that fails, then another and so forth. Again, go and play Darkest Hour by Paradox on Steam, it doesn't require the Steam launcher. This is Fact. Same with Majesty HD, this is Fact.

C) If they choose to use the DRM system, yes.

Simply put:

1) If I buy a game on Steam, and I can run it without Steam, then Steam does not function as DRM. OP's claim is shot down.

2) If I buy a game on Steam, and I cannot run it without Steam, then Steam's CEG does function as DRM. Op's claim is right.

So, is Steam then DRM, Yes or No?

If the developer implements it, yes, else no. And since there are cases of No, Steam is not DRM, since it never always functions as DRM.
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BreOl72: THE MAJORITY sets the course. And they do it by purchasing what they want.

If you believe that you (= a minority) could change anything, simply by not purchasing...I have a nice bridge to sell, that you can decide not to buy. ;)
Eh, I would disagree with that proposition and propose that the Minority sets the course, the majority act it. Denuvo isn't added at a majority level, and Denuvo is now mainstream because the majority tolerate it.
Post edited February 17, 2019 by lumengloriosum
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lumengloriosum: Eh, I would disagree with that proposition and propose that the Minority sets the course, the majority act it. Denuvo isn't added at a majority level, and Denuvo is now mainstream because the majority tolerate it.
Exactly. The majority sets the course. By purchasing games, whether they are DRM'd with Denuvo or not.
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lumengloriosum: Thus objectively Steam does not function as DRM.

Simply put, even if it's only 6.5% of games, that 6.5% functions objectively independently of the Steam so-called DRM platform that people put forward.
"Unless 100% of games use x available disliked feature that a client provides for most games sold through it then you can't criticise x feature or the client that enables it to be rolled out large scale" is a total straw-man non-argument. A client could also handle payment management for in-game micro-transactions & lootboxes and guess what - people are "allowed" to criticise the store-front / client used for making it easier for devs to roll out large-scale hostile monetization too without requiring 100% of games the store sells having MT's in them for criticism of the games that do to be valid.

"Unless 100% of all games on Steam use Steam's DRM created by Steam for the Steam client, then the Steam client that manages Steam's DRM has nothing to do with Steam's DRM. No siree...". As I said, this is just empty word-game trolling and "bait and switching" the usual (entirely valid) DRM argument "it's not good for the gaming industry or long-term game preservation for DRM to be normalized to the extent of 95% of titles" to something else "Hey since you can still buy The Tale of Doris and the Dragon on Steam DRM-Free, let's steer the whole discussion onto being about only those kinds of titles that aren't affected, and away from all the 95% that are!"
Post edited February 17, 2019 by AB2012