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eisberg77: yes, it is the same, because your web browser and the client are both acting as just the delivery method
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Phasmid: If you require extraneous software from the vendor to download then that software is DRM. The Steam app is extraneous and required for download and install, hence it's DRM. It's that simple.

Saying the steam app is just a delivery method is a canard as obviously isn't just a delivery method, it's extraneous software designed to verify purchases and control the install. If it were a specialised ftp client made by Valve and not required for install then you'd have a point, but it isn't, so you don't.
This. I agree.
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satoru: And again lets go over this because people literally do not even understand how Steam works apparently.
Yes and that clearly includes your own overly-emotional posts. SHOUTING EVERY OTHER SENTENCE IN CAPITAL LETTERS doesn't make you more right, it just looks childish.

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satoru: 1) Literally NO ONE uses CEG AT ALL. NO ONE. Even giant AAA titles don't use CEG. You coudl literally count the number of titles that use CEG on one hand
"No more than 5 games on Steam have ever used CEG and none are AAA's". You're not even a very good troll here. Hundreds of games on Steam use CEG including many AAA's that you claim never use it (Portal 2, Bioshock Infinite, Dishonored, Talos Principle, Alien Isolation, Deus Ex Human Revolution, Saints Row IV, The Bureau: XCOM Declassified, etc, and even added CEG to re-releases of +15 year old games, eg, Age of Empires 2 HD, Age of Mythology EE, etc). Nor does CEG in itself = the only DRM Steam has. The basic "is the client running" check is the primary layer of DRM without being CEG (the second layer of DRM) and that's on 94% of Steam games. If you can't even be honest about this basic stuff, then it throws your "no-one but me knows how Steam works" style posts into serious question...

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satoru: 2) Steamworks is NOT DRM. I repeat, STEAMWORKS IS NOT DRM
Steam's DRM in Steam's own words:-

"The Steam DRM wrapper is an important part of Steam platform. Manual Steam DRM Wrapper Instructions : To quickly wrap an exe with the Steam wrapper use the Steamworks App Data Admin page to wrap the primary game exe"

https://partner.steamgames.com/doc/features/drm

So "Steamworks has nothing to do with DRM" has been debunked by Steam themselves on their own developer portal pages openly describing that in order to add Steam's DRM to games on Steam, you use the Steamworks admin page... The rest is just recycling the same childish word games already done to death on the first 4 pages of this thread...
Post edited February 27, 2019 by AB2012
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eisberg77: DRM only matters when it comes to what is actually installed on your PC
Sigh.

And where exactly is Steam installed, if not on your computer? On your heart on your very soul, maybe?

Facetious, sure, but really you're relying on Special Pleading for your argument. It's not fundamentally necessary to have a proprietary client for downloads, they do it for a reason and that reason is to control your downloads, and the initial install, something a browser does not do and which is not necessary for steam to do either. Hence it's DRM, management of your digital rights.

If you had to download and install the SecuROM client to download and install games I guarantee that would be regarded as DRM, not just as a delivery method, yet the only change from what steam does is the name.
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eisberg77: DRM only matters when it comes to what is actually installed on your PC
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Phasmid: Sigh.

And where exactly is Steam installed, if not on your computer? On your heart on your very soul, maybe?

Facetious, sure, but really you're relying on Special Pleading for your argument. It's not fundamentally necessary to have a proprietary client for downloads, they do it for a reason and that reason is to control your downloads, and the initial install, something a browser does not do and which is not necessary for steam to do either. Hence it's DRM, management of your digital rights.

If you had to download and install the SecuROM client to download and install games I guarantee that would be regarded as DRM, not just as a delivery method, yet the only change from what steam does is the name.
Nope. Sorry, you are still wrong. It literally does not matter what has to be done to get the files to your computer, DRM has never ever meant anything to do with delivery at all and has only meant what is on the game itself. It has only been Steam haters that have decided to invent a new definition of DRM so they can force Steam into it and claim it is DRM, is you guys that are going for the special pleading by inventing a new defnition of DRM to include delivery method. Even GoG is controling your download by making sure you have rights to the content, hence using your logic GoG is now DRM because they are controling your downloading of the game. You cannot have it both way which is what you are trying to do.

GoG is to managing your digital rights, by making sure you can only download what you have the right to, hence DRM, but no reasonable person who actually knows what DRM really is would ever consider delivery method and needing permission to download a game from servers as being the same thing as DRM, because DRM only ever concerns what is actually on the game software itself and never about the delivery method. Is Steamworks CEG or any other DRM on the game? No? Then it is DRM free, therefore Steam cannot be DRM cause if it was then that game would not be DRM free since it would also have Steamworks CEG on it.


Till you guys get on board with the correct terminology of what DRM is, and actually fight the proper battles, in which you currently are not, then the war against DRM will never be won.

So get on board with the proper terminology and usage if you actually care about this stuff, otherwise continue to hit your head against the wall when the industry is looking at what you are doing and realizing you have no idea what you are even talking about.

So get on board or get out, we don't need you hindering the battle against DRM.
Post edited February 27, 2019 by eisberg77
I own 1.864 games on steam and I don't really care about some DRM.

Steam offers a much wider variety of games that fit my taste perfectly.

Also you should be aware that almost everything you spend money for is yours temporary.

The car you buy today? In 20 years, it'll be junk unless you spend a lot more money into it to keep it running.
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eisberg77: "DRM has never ever meant anything to do with delivery at all"
What planet do you live on? DRM by definition involves "the use, modification, and distribution of copyrighted works". "Distribution" is delivery. Using your "logic", encrypted DRM'd streaming services like Netflix are "DRM-Free" because "let's ignore the delivery" (of a platform whose entire service is about delivery...) Your own redefinition which you believe to be the "proper terminology that everyone else needs to get on board with" is probably the fakest of all being already debunked by observable reality of how DRM works for video / audio streaming (entirely about protection of delivery).

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eisberg77: "Steam cannot be DRM cause if it was then that game would not be DRM free since it would also have Steamworks CEG on it."
"GOG Galaxy cannot possibly involve managing cloud saves & achievements in general because if that were true, 100% of GOG games would have them". Swap that for DRM and it's the same straw man that was debunked about 5 pages ago. Feature X doesn't need to be in exactly 100% of games that passes through a client in order for one of main core functions of that client to predominantly involve managing Feature X for the overwhelming 95% majority of games that do have it.

As Phasmid said, the majority of these "arguments" are nothing more than childish word-redefinition games, special pleading & the most ridiculous "arguing for the sake of arguing" double-standards. If someone were to say "A core function of Steam & Steamworks is managing cloud saves and this remains true even though not all Steam games use cloud saves", it wouldn't 'trigger' anywhere near the amount of emotional outbursts amongst fanboys that "A core function of Steam & Steamworks is managing DRM and this remains true even though not all Steam games use DRM" does...
Post edited February 27, 2019 by AB2012
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eisberg77: snip
Steam is DRM. Just because not all games on the service use Steamworks, they still require Steam to install. Simple.
This thread just keeps on giving!

GOG obviously needs to know whether you got the games in question or not. That's authorization. It also needs your identity to let you redownload your stuff, and that's authentication. In digital commerce, where files are sold as goods, these two are necessary to functioning.

The rest is where we play. Far as I am concerned, as others have ALREADY SAID, you need to have Steam installed to download a game. Don't have it on the PC you're using? Well, get ready to get the staff or your admin convinced about the idea that you need to install this piece of software to download stuff to stick on your flash drive. That's hurdle number one.

Second hurdle: just because a game is "DRM-free" right now on Steam doesn't mean it stays that way. Ultimately, this is where the requirement of the client matters most: the auto-update functionality means it's harder to stay on the DRM-free build and that means that games on said platform are not guaranteed to stay that way!

I cannot see how anyone can ignore the fact that the vast majority of games literally require the client open and logged in to your account, and then claim the whole thing is DRM-free. That doesn't work and that's what ultimately shoots us in the foot, not claims that we don't get what DRM is or that we make it too broad.

Just remember: the client isn't merely a distributor, it's the mechanism which makes up the DRM. This is vastly different than using any browser of your choice to download a game; even Internet Explorer for all I care. The battles don't begin by encouraging devs to offer DRM-free on a platform that doesn't offer any guarantees or transparency to whether a product uses first party DRM or not. The battles begin by ensuring that DRM-free is clearly labelled so that everyone can see it, and guaranteed so that we can expect the devs to stay true to their word. GOG is the one who pushing for this; Steam? They'd rather you don't know at all!
Post edited February 27, 2019 by PookaMustard
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lazydog: synfresh, I believe that we are on the same page.

Given that CD Projekt are affilaited with GoG, but they still walked away from DRM and not just because it didn't work- it also placed hurdles in front of legitiamte users-says a great deal.

All developers care about is the bottom line, make no mistake. Getting them to realise that DRM hits their bottom line is the key.

You will always get stores. These will move online as digital sellers kill conventional stores. It doesn't mean that you have to put up with DRM or any other practice which harms the consumer.

I have and will continue to boycott all DRM stores, it's the reason I'm here.

It can be done: simply do not buy DRM products- enough do it and you will see exclusives vanish.
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synfresh: But I just want to play Skyrim/Civ VI/Nier Automata/The Division 2/Far Cry 5/Name a game that is not DRM-Free. The average person doesn't want to sacrifice their hobby and 'wait it out' until some magical time where developers will 'see the light' and no longer put DRM on their products.

You say enough will do it. THe problem is DRM by and large is not affecting consumers to the point where it's influencing their purchases. I'm not saying it's a good thing, it's not. But in order to cause change there needs to be something that is a catalyst. What is that catalyst?
I think that the catalyst would have to be the failure (for whatever reason ) of one of the big DRM stores.

Customers would then face the real possibility that the ability to use their license is gone. After all they are subscription services.

What might happen? Would the licenses be granted without the DRM aspect? If so, people may ask why DRM was needed in the first place. Would it fall to individual devs/pubs to provide a way for customers to access their licenses? Or would your licenses simply die with the subscription?

I don't think any one really knows and I for one won't be taking the risk-it is not an issue here on Gog as you can backup.
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Maybe this has been posted already but friendly reminder that satoru is a Steam mod. No wonder the ridiculous fanboy defenses of "if Steam is DRM, so is your browser, nyah!".

https://www.gog.com/forum/general/the_steam_support_has_deleted_or_renamed_my_accounts_login/post262
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Shadowstalker16: What is DRM in your infinite wisdom then? What does it constitute and when can a game be said to have DRM? What are some examples of games with DRM? Please answer this instead of linking to stupid tweets.
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Pheace: Don't know about him but I liked the example some person gave where, after the world has ended and he's the only person left in a bunker somewhere, he should be able to play their games fully.

Now first, again, yes Steam can be used as DRM. No, it's not required to do so which is why there are also DRM-Free games on Steam.

I can understand the heated back and forth on what is DRM-Free but are we now really arguing that needing a client to download a game once and then never needing it again is DRM? I know the definition is a moving target but this seems a bit extreme.
Once you have it there's no external control over it anymore, it's completely under your control, no strings attached. That would fit the definition of DRM-Free imo. Heck, people used to promote Gamersgate for DRM-Free games, and 'all you needed to do' was copy out the game from it's installation folder during a certain moment of it's installation to have it drm-free.
It seems a definition of DRM that actually uses the concept of file management freedom / software installation uninstallation / moving freedom is needed. If the steam client is just a downloader, then it won't be DRM (just like the GOG downloader) but as others have posted in the thread, there is an optional feature whereby the developer can set the client to check the integrity of the game files automatically. Which is copy protection.
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AB2012: [
Steam's DRM in Steam's own words:-

"The Steam DRM wrapper is an important part of Steam platform. Manual Steam DRM Wrapper Instructions : To quickly wrap an exe with the Steam wrapper use the Steamworks App Data Admin page to wrap the primary game exe"
The literal stupidity in your quote is staggering

They're talking about CEG. Which again literally no one uses. 99% of games on Steam dont use CEG. Which means 99% of games on steam could easily be DRM free.

Steam is not DRM just because there is a single feature in the API that literally no one uses.

Steamworks is not DRM

https://twitter.com/icculus/status/471441666419990528?lang=en

Proven by an actual developer who works with steam games.

Steamworks is not DRM

https://store.steampowered.com/app/243950/Divinity_Dragon_Commander/

Proven by the fact that a game, on steam, can integrate literally every user facing steamworks feature including multiplayer, leaderboards and matchmaking, and be 100% DRM free, on steam.

Again its this sort of ignorance that really hurts DRM free gaming. Its 'steam is DRM!' which means your proposal to devs is untenable false dichotomy

Stop saying Steam is DRM

And instead say "Hey devs try to make your game like Divinity Dragon Commander, you can have your game on steam and be DRM free too". Because most devs dont know this. Stop killing your message because of your irrational hatred of steam.
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satoru: Stop saying Steam is DRM
After being made aware that you are in fact a Steam Moderator who never discloses that out of professional integrity when posting on competitors sites, all I can conclude is every word out of your mouth is full on trolling. Looking back at your posting history, every time Steam gets mentioned in a DRM thread here - ding-ding - out goes the "call to arms" and up you pop on schedule. As other people have observed here in the past (this thread and multiple others), your intentions here are now as transparent as shrink wrap...
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satoru: Stop saying Steam is DRM
yeah, sure. because you said so.

dude, You have been brainwashed by Steam.
https://partner.steamgames.com/doc/features/drm
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AB2012: all I can conclude is every word out of your mouth is full on trolling.
It'd be far more reasonable to just look at his arguments and respond to those rather than dismiss anything out of hand because he happens to moderate on the steam forums.