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DetouR6734: Simple fact, many have no choice, when Steam got going every game i wanted was on Steam, bought a physical copy to have to register with Steam, so either one quits gaming for good, or accepts Steam for better or worse.
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StingingVelvet: Yep. I know some people switched to consoles to avoid DRM, but then you're tied to specific hardware which is just as bad IMO, and with all the patches and DLC games rely on now you're still very tied in to their online services anyway. More and more games are download only too, so then you're getting hit with both ends. Even more important I'm a PC gamer, I can't do controller input for first-person and 30fps games with massive blur filters on them. I'd rather just stop, but I decided not to stop, not yet. Always online would be where I stopped.
This was me before I found GOG. I simply switched to Consoles. With Playstation games, even if I buy it from their store, I haven't gotten one yet where I actually have to be online to play. All the games play online.

Even more, I have several games which I can play on both the PS3 and the Vita (though, not many on the PS4). The cost these days of a PS4 is much less than a gaming rig, I can buy 2-5 PS4s for the same price as a Gaming PC (Depends on specs of the PC). I also can still buy hardcopy disks which play without me having to get on the internet.

Xbox allows me to play games on the Xbox one from the Xbox, Xbox 360, and Xbox One eras (and with Xbox Series X probably all three will be allowed). Today (though I haven't tried it) I also understand, if you have a PC, you can be a PC gamer with your Xbox games. In theory, though never tried, I could play all my Xbox games on PC as well.
However, they DO have more restrictive DRM to a degree. I can play my Xbox and Xbox one games fine offline, however, the Xbox 360 require me to be online to save (I can still play them, but it doesn't save the game, which stinks and counts as worse than Steam in that aspect).

When I found GOG though, I started small with classics I used to play, and it just grew from there. I'm now an Avid gamer on PC again as well (though I still play a lot on Consoles). I've even branched out with Linux and started trying to see how gaming works with it (very well to a degree so far).
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GreywolfLord: This was me before I found GOG. I simply switched to Consoles. With Playstation games, even if I buy it from their store, I haven't gotten one yet where I actually have to be online to play. All the games play online.
I'm sure it works the same as Steam, where you have to be online to download and install but after that can play offline. It would actually be worse though, since it's a closed system and there's no getting around it if the service is shut off someday.

To me that's a really important point when discussing DRM, actually. The PC platform's open nature and the PC gaming community's tendency to keep games running long after official support ends make DRM less a risk for PC games than it would be for streaming or console stuff, IMO. Until Denuvo anyway, which sometimes actually does prevent piracy it seems. I'm not a pirate at all, but that worries me simply because if it's too effective it might actually prevent preservation.
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lumengloriosum: And as I have replied to you a few times, and the point has been made to you a few times now, not just by me but Amok too...

Steam sells games that do not require Steam to run, inherently contradictory to what DRM actually is.

Thus, if I wanted to sell my game on Steam, I can choose the DRM Free option they provide, meaning inhrerently it is not DRM unless the DRM is activated.

I have made points on this, and none have been refuted.

As to the quote, like I said, try launching Darkest Hour or Majesty HD without Steam. It works.

Now I wonder, have you ever used Steam at all with an old game?
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moobot83: yeah and why are none of those games on GOG. steam still requires the clent to play those games though the only way is to like remove DLL files and other complicated stuff

***********

i only use gog galaxy and battle net thats it steam can die for all i care
So Blizzard games requiring a client is fine but for Steam it's horrible DRM? Riiiiight.
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GreywolfLord: This was me before I found GOG. I simply switched to Consoles. With Playstation games, even if I buy it from their store, I haven't gotten one yet where I actually have to be online to play. All the games play online.
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StingingVelvet: I'm sure it works the same as Steam, where you have to be online to download and install but after that can play offline. It would actually be worse though, since it's a closed system and there's no getting around it if the service is shut off someday.

To me that's a really important point when discussing DRM, actually. The PC platform's open nature and the PC gaming community's tendency to keep games running long after official support ends make DRM less a risk for PC games than it would be for streaming or console stuff, IMO. Until Denuvo anyway, which sometimes actually does prevent piracy it seems. I'm not a pirate at all, but that worries me simply because if it's too effective it might actually prevent preservation.
Define closed...

I have games for the PS3 that play on the PS Vita and the PSTV. That's three different systems. PS3 was the best, as I could even play PS1 games on it (and PS2 games on my backwards compatible version).

PS4 didn't really have that, but PS5 supposedly will be backwards compatible with many of the PS4 games.

On top of that, I can get hardcopies of PS4 games (for example, just picked up Streets of Rage 4, on disc). Yes, it only works on a PS4, but it can be used on any PS4 regardless of whether there is an internet connection (or internet even available) or not.

In regards to longevity...I still have PS1 games I Play (after 20 some odd years), which, while not as old as some PC games, are older than others that cannot be played on Windows 10 (or even 8 from the past).

Steam on the otherhand, from what I've seen is far more restrictive, especially for many games. You can't have an offline copy if you wanted to have it, and many games require an occasional phone home or at least an authentication when being started up.

PS4 doesn't require that of any of the hardcopy games I have, and none of the downloaded games that I have on it require a phone home to play at the beginning either.
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GreywolfLord: Define closed...

I have games for the PS3 that play on the PS Vita and the PSTV. That's three different systems. PS3 was the best, as I could even play PS1 games on it (and PS2 games on my backwards compatible version).

PS4 didn't really have that, but PS5 supposedly will be backwards compatible with many of the PS4 games.

On top of that, I can get hardcopies of PS4 games (for example, just picked up Streets of Rage 4, on disc). Yes, it only works on a PS4, but it can be used on any PS4 regardless of whether there is an internet connection (or internet even available) or not.

In regards to longevity...I still have PS1 games I Play (after 20 some odd years), which, while not as old as some PC games, are older than others that cannot be played on Windows 10 (or even 8 from the past).

Steam on the otherhand, from what I've seen is far more restrictive, especially for many games. You can't have an offline copy if you wanted to have it, and many games require an occasional phone home or at least an authentication when being started up.

PS4 doesn't require that of any of the hardcopy games I have, and none of the downloaded games that I have on it require a phone home to play at the beginning either.
Closed means Sony controls what all runs on it. There are no fan patches of .ini file tweaks or anything like that. Unless you someone cracks it and you homebrew it I guess.

As for the rest, I think you're a little off. Steam requires one authorization during install, assuming it uses Steam DRM inthe first place. Then you can run it offline to your heart's content. I spent a year in an Eastern European mountain village in 2012 and used offline mode pretty much the whole time, with zero issues. Also Windows 7//10 compatibility is very good, and running old games looking and performing better than ever is a big draw of the PC platform.

I'm glad you're having fun after "going console" but you don't have to misstate things about the PC.
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GreywolfLord: Define closed...

I have games for the PS3 that play on the PS Vita and the PSTV. That's three different systems. PS3 was the best, as I could even play PS1 games on it (and PS2 games on my backwards compatible version).

PS4 didn't really have that, but PS5 supposedly will be backwards compatible with many of the PS4 games.

On top of that, I can get hardcopies of PS4 games (for example, just picked up Streets of Rage 4, on disc). Yes, it only works on a PS4, but it can be used on any PS4 regardless of whether there is an internet connection (or internet even available) or not.

In regards to longevity...I still have PS1 games I Play (after 20 some odd years), which, while not as old as some PC games, are older than others that cannot be played on Windows 10 (or even 8 from the past).

Steam on the otherhand, from what I've seen is far more restrictive, especially for many games. You can't have an offline copy if you wanted to have it, and many games require an occasional phone home or at least an authentication when being started up.

PS4 doesn't require that of any of the hardcopy games I have, and none of the downloaded games that I have on it require a phone home to play at the beginning either.
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StingingVelvet: Closed means Sony controls what all runs on it. There are no fan patches of .ini file tweaks or anything like that. Unless you someone cracks it and you homebrew it I guess.

As for the rest, I think you're a little off. Steam requires one authorization during install, assuming it uses Steam DRM inthe first place. Then you can run it offline to your heart's content. I spent a year in an Eastern European mountain village in 2012 and used offline mode pretty much the whole time, with zero issues. Also Windows 7//10 compatibility is very good, and running old games looking and performing better than ever is a big draw of the PC platform.

I'm glad you're having fun after "going console" but you don't have to misstate things about the PC.
There's also some games on Steam that are not wrapped w/ DRM. Sure, you still have to grab your games from Steam client-app in the 1st place - but, you can back-up some games that don't have DRM. Back-up folder and...run it outside Steam; it should work.

Enslaved, Wizardry 8, Gone Home are some examples of games on Steam not wrapped w/ DRM.

Many DOSBox-based games also can be run without Steam.

Also, games w/ Source Ports - even if the original version may or may not be protected - think like say Arx Fatalis; Quake series; Classic Doom type of games (Doom 1,2,Final Doom, Hexen, Heretic); DN3D Atomic, Megaton, and/or Anniversary World Tour; Blood: One Unit Whole or Blood: Fresh Supply; etc - those should work with an unprotected Source Port installed too.
Post edited August 18, 2020 by MysterD
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MysterD: Also, games w/ Source Ports - even if the original version may or may not be protected - think like say Arx Fatalis; Quake series; Classic Doom type of games (Doom 1,2,Final Doom, Hexen, Heretic); DN3D Atomic, Megaton, and/or Anniversary World Tour; Blood: One Unit Whole or Blood: Fresh Supply; etc - those should work with an unprotected Source Port installed too.
Yeah it's tempting to get the early Doom and Wolfenstein games here during the current sale, but truth is the Steam copies I have from forever ago are just DRM free Dosbox files I can run in source ports. It's functionally no different whatsoever from the GOG versions. That goes for a lot of indie games as well.
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MysterD: Also, games w/ Source Ports - even if the original version may or may not be protected - think like say Arx Fatalis; Quake series; Classic Doom type of games (Doom 1,2,Final Doom, Hexen, Heretic); DN3D Atomic, Megaton, and/or Anniversary World Tour; Blood: One Unit Whole or Blood: Fresh Supply; etc - those should work with an unprotected Source Port installed too.
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StingingVelvet: Yeah it's tempting to get the early Doom and Wolfenstein games here during the current sale, but truth is the Steam copies I have from forever ago are just DRM free Dosbox files I can run in source ports. It's functionally no different whatsoever from the GOG versions. That goes for a lot of indie games as well.
Heck, I still have my old retail copies of Doom: Collector's Edition (with Ultimate Doom 1, Doom 2, Final Doom) that they put out before Doom 3 (old version).

I also have Doom 3 (old version) and RoE (old version) from retail.

Also have Doom 3 BFG over on Steam, also - for this D3 Remastered Edition of sorts; Lost Levels; and also since it includes WAD for No Rest for the Living for Doom 2....which can be used in Source Ports.