It seems that you're using an outdated browser. Some things may not work as they should (or don't work at all).
We suggest you upgrade newer and better browser like: Chrome, Firefox, Internet Explorer or Opera

×
If something has a "message" as part of it, the delivery will quickly determine if I will stick with it. For example, I don't like media that supports environmentalism for the sake of saving the earth. On the other hand, if a more mercenary reason is used (resource efficiency, preventing the drowning of cities, preserving species for bio-mimicry research.) then I may lend a ear to the message.
avatar
tinyE: I also took the Cthulhu fish off my car. I need a break from it.
Wait....they have cars up in the Keweenaw?
Post edited October 20, 2016 by zeogold
avatar
tinyE: I also took the Cthulhu fish off my car. I need a break from it.
avatar
zeogold: Wait....they have cars up in the Keweenaw?
Kind of.
avatar
tinyE: ...with the mini NES coming out next month...
My wife wants one too since it has her favorite game of all time: Super Mario Bros. 3
avatar
dtgreene: For instance, if the developer decides that people shouldn't play female characters and penalizes the player for doing so (for example, the Gold Box SSI games), then that will negatively affect my enjoyment of the game (and will likely make me want to hack/mod around that rule).
Everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion.
But, I do have a problem with this viewpoint:
Are human females considered weaker, yes
Did the SSI games reflect this, yes. Did the SSI games also reflect similar stuff on other races, yes. So using your logic, did you also feel the same when using another none human character? Oh, dwarfs do have less attribute XYZ, I have to hack them?
I do not have all the stats in memory, but AFAIR they only subtracted strength and dexterity or constiution, which is matching with what is applied in real world too. (and if translated over nothing like what is being suggested (50%) in this article, so was SSI driving by females back than? ;), would mean you HAVE TO USE only female characters ;) )
avatar
dtgreene: For instance, if the developer decides that people shouldn't play female characters and penalizes the player for doing so (for example, the Gold Box SSI games), then that will negatively affect my enjoyment of the game (and will likely make me want to hack/mod around that rule).
avatar
Goodaltgamer: Everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion.
But, I do have a problem with this viewpoint:
Are human females considered weaker, yes
Did the SSI games reflect this, yes. Did the SSI games also reflect similar stuff on other races, yes. So using your logic, did you also feel the same when using another none human character? Oh, dwarfs do have less attribute XYZ, I have to hack them?
I do not have all the stats in memory, but AFAIR they only subtracted strength and dexterity or constiution, which is matching with what is applied in real world too. (and if translated over nothing like what is being suggested (50%) in this article, so was SSI driving by females back than? ;), would mean you HAVE TO USE only female characters ;) )
Here is the problem: In the Gold Box games, there is nothing given to female characters to compensate for the loss in strength (and I note that only strength is affected by being female). (Also, the rule actually comes from 1e AD&D, and was removed in 2e, as it was generally considered to be a mistake (and SSI games based on 2e don't use this rule).)

The way I see it, the most fair approach is to give female characters the same stats and abilities as male characters, making the decision purely cosmetic (which is what most players are expecting). If differentiation is desired, the two choices should be balanced, rather than one being superior to the other. (Also, I would advice against having male characters get no modifiers; instead of, say, giving females -1 Str and +1 Dex (for example), give males +1 Str and females +1 Dex; that avoids the "male as default" issue.)

The Elder Scrolls games handle gender differences decently for the most part (aside from the fact that, in TES: Arena, male Dark Elves are overpowered compared to other options and are strictly better than females of that race).

AD&D games based on 2nd edition or later take the best approach; no modifiers for either sex. Also, the Ultima series up through VII (but not VIII and IX, which force you to play a male character) also takes that approach (and Ultima even has a 3rd gender option).

One more thing: Just because something is realistic does not make it a good gameplay mechanic. Mechanics that force the PCs to eat tend to be more annoying than fun, as are having to worry about weapon durability and ammo for weapons that are not strong enough to warrant such limiting factors (particularly when there are strong weapons that aren't affected by such mechanics).

Edit: In the SSI Gold Box games, some players do hack around the racial level limits that make non-human characters useless in the later games.
Post edited October 20, 2016 by dtgreene
avatar
dtgreene: Here is the problem: In the Gold Box games, there is nothing given to female characters to compensate for the loss in strength (and I note that only strength is affected by being female). (Also, the rule actually comes from 1e AD&D, and was removed in 2e, as it was generally considered to be a mistake (and SSI games based on 2e don't use this rule).)

The way I see it, the most fair approach is to give female characters the same stats and abilities as male characters, making the decision purely cosmetic (which is what most players are expecting). If differentiation is desired, the two choices should be balanced, rather than one being superior to the other. (Also, I would advice against having male characters get no modifiers; instead of, say, giving females -1 Str and +1 Dex (for example), give males +1 Str and females +1 Dex; that avoids the "male as default" issue.)

The Elder Scrolls games handle gender differences decently for the most part (aside from the fact that, in TES: Arena, male Dark Elves are overpowered compared to other options and are strictly better than females of that race).

AD&D games based on 2nd edition or later take the best approach; no modifiers for either sex. Also, the Ultima series up through VII (but not VIII and IX, which force you to play a male character) also takes that approach (and Ultima even has a 3rd gender option).

One more thing: Just because something is realistic does not make it a good gameplay mechanic. Mechanics that force the PCs to eat tend to be more annoying than fun, as are having to worry about weapon durability and ammo for weapons that are not strong enough to warrant such limiting factors (particularly when there are strong weapons that aren't affected by such mechanics).

Edit: In the SSI Gold Box games, some players do hack around the racial level limits that make non-human characters useless in the later games.
I extra only concentrated on the Gold series otherwise a never-ending story and also different thinking behind ;)

I do not remember SSI using another rule set, do you have examples there?

I think why it was implemented in the first place (gender difference) was to get at least a little bit real life feeling into the games. (they did sway IIRC from some aspects of the rules anyway) And yes they could have handled it in another way, I always was expecting also slightly different role-checks and similar in the games, but there SSI only used the gender neutral way (i.e. a female character doing Fast Talk/convince onto opposite sex or distract was always the same). So out of this, it would have made more sense to have no + or - for any gender.

Adding positive stats to a gender? hmmm... outcome would be still the same and only cosmetic, or? (don't really see a difference there, just changing the base line, but not the outcome)

Offsetting the malus: As shortly described above, I think if they would have implemented certain checks/quests and similar more based on gender, THAT would have been better, me thinks.(hiding in shadows, disguise to name a few and better fitting with role-playing and also making other races more 'useful'). Not saying that there were never Walkuere/Valkyrie like ones around though ;)

Just the way how the Gold box games were done, yes it doesn't really make any difference for the RPG part for the gender, hence they could have dropped it all complete and just keep it cosmetic.

About realistic: It really depends on what the devs want to achieve. Do you know Xenomorph? Talking about PC eating/drinking? Or burntime? If you do know those games, it really made sense there. Agreed that quite a lot of games it is just grinding and not really RPG.
"should"? Usually, it *does*. Should a movie's actors influence your enjoyment of the movie?
avatar
Ophelium: While his work has not yet reflected these beliefs (he's been on a long hiatus), can [emphasis mine] you divorce your personal opinion of the creator from [your personal opinion of - FTFY] his/her work?
One, I'm not going to force myself to like something.
Two, you're phrasing it in a way that suggests my personal opinion of the creator is worth less than my personal opinion of their work. And it's just assbackwards; my opinion of people obviously matters more because it's humanist and political, it's thought-out, it affects other people, it affects me, it affects the world. I don't look at people and decide, "eh, brown-haired people look prettier, you're blond so I'm going to assume you're a shitty person". Art on the other hand comes in two types: "ooh fluffy" and "meh unimpressive", it's my lifetime and my consumer choice.

TL;DR people are by default worthy and art by default is not; a person deviating from this default carries more weight than an artwork not deviating. So if my opinion is "Scott Adams is a bad person and Dilbert is bad", it's not worth my time to reassess my opinion of Dilbert, especially in light of the creator's badness -- otherwise, I'd be favoring art by terrible people, allowing it a bonus reassessment I don't typically grant to art by not-terrible people.
avatar
Ophelium: I know this is probably not the best place to ask this question, but there a few people here whose opinion I do respect. I recently found out that a YouTube creator I've really enjoyed the work of supports beliefs that I ardently oppose as those beliefs may reasonably affect me. While his work has not yet reflected these beliefs (he's been on a long hiatus), can you divorce your personal opinion of the creator from his/her work?
I subscribe to the 'Death of the Author' theory, who's premise is that the author's interpretation of their work is but one of many possible ones, so it is best to judge a work on its own merits. So yes, personally, I can and do divorce my personal opinion of the creator from their work.

Not only that, but I believe it is possible to judge someone as a creator separately from how we judge them as a person. In fact, I almost find it crazy that some people don't. Ultimately, creators are humans too, and have their flaws and qualities. If I strayed away from any work who's creator or creators were even remotely dubious, chances are that there wouldn't be a whole lot left for me to enjoy. Not to mention that it would severely limit my opportunities to learn; thinking that someone is wrong regarding a particular issue or belief does not mean that ALL of their thoughts and beliefs have no value.

I would also like to add that all this focus on the author causes us to ignore or even forget about the other important parties in this matter — the audience. Ultimately, fictional works only have value if they are experienced by others. And when those people experience that work, they view and respond to it through their own unique lens. I feel that that is something that shouldn't be ignored. While I as a reader/viewer/player etc. may not own the work, I do own the thoughts and emotions that it elicits within me.

I guess what I'm trying to say is something that was put more succinctly by W.H. Auden: 'Some books are undeservedly forgotten; none are undeservedly remembered.'
low rated
I'm with DaCostaBR and Gandos on the Death of the Autor track. When I wrote my master's thesis, I picked a Swiss author whose life was a bit overinterpreted by some biographers – allegations of incest, changing but ever extremist stances on religion, gynophobia, the works. Writing the thesis was fun eventually, as secondary literature usually sought to see these things confirmed in his works, and it was all too easy to dismantle those theories – it didn't really matter whether the allegations against the author were wrong or not, the novellas themselves just didn't say what the interpreters for over a hundred years thought they did. Death of the Autor means judging a work of fiction for what it is, not for who wrote it.

You may come to the conclusion that the political nonsense that a modern author spews on his online blog has found its way into his books as well. Of course, you'd have to read those books first. Or you may come to the conclusion that the works of fiction of another author have squat to do with the ideology the author holds.

You may still find that buying the works of authors whose ideology you can't share supports the opinion of the guy or gal unduly. So I'm pretty torn and inconsequential in my support of those creators even though Death of the Author universally applies.

I'm reading books by Orson Scott Card even though his opinions are in part appalling – what should I do, the guy even wrote the Monkey Island swordfight insults. I'm hesitant to dive into the works of Doug TenNapel, noted US/Christian supremacist, even though I'm convinced I'd like what he did and his attitudes didn't influence what he created. And I imported Dilbert books back in the early 90s, and I'm still reading them today, finding some wisdom between the lines; the attitudes its creator holds on his blog and twitter are consistently and utterly egomaniac, paranoid and rubbish and he certainly won't see another cent from me.

TL;DR: The attitudes an author holds may not be damning to the quality of his work, but the decision whether to support the author still has to be made on an individual basis.
Post edited October 20, 2016 by Vainamoinen
avatar
Ophelium: I know this is probably not the best place to ask this question, but there a few people here whose opinion I do respect. I recently found out that a YouTube creator I've really enjoyed the work of supports beliefs that I ardently oppose as those beliefs may reasonably affect me. While his work has not yet reflected these beliefs (he's been on a long hiatus), can you divorce your personal opinion of the creator from his/her work?
Hmm depends on what those beliefs are. So I guess it breaks down to three things.

1) Religious, Political or non-ethical views.

In this case it shouldn't matter (although this year is an extreme case for politics).


2) Ethical, highly questionable actions/views, perhaps donating/taking part in organizations that are illegal/unethical

In this case the reason to ignore/boycott is much more to your personal preference.


3) Personal views are bleeding into his work.

In this case if it has no right for the beliefs to be present then it's best to ignore him. Assume he has an Indian religious views and he's talking about Tacos, there's no reason for his religion to even come up with food.

On the other hand with say a game where he's modelling a god based on his religion's lore (League of legends for example) then using such lore in the game/content is totally understandable.


So it really depends on how it plays out. If they can separate work and beliefs then ultimately it shouldn't matter.
avatar
dtgreene: ...The way I see it, the most fair approach is to give female characters the same stats and abilities as male characters, making the decision purely cosmetic (which is what most players are expecting). If differentiation is desired, the two choices should be balanced, rather than one being superior to the other. ...
You could make the female characters a bit less strong but a bit more intelligent maybe...

Actually by customizing your character you even achieve that with male characters (Stephen Hawking type of character).

I fully agree, there should be completely freedom to play a warrior heroine as well as a weak but smart warlock, whatever you like. Sex or race is just cosmetics or whatever the player wants it to be. No artificial restrictions.
avatar
Trilarion: Sex or race is just cosmetics or whatever the player wants it to be. No artificial restrictions.
Then why have different sexes or races in games?
avatar
Goodaltgamer: ...I think why it was implemented in the first place (gender difference) was to get at least a little bit real life feeling into the games. ...
Hmm. In real life there are many women which are stronger than many men (not on average, but the overlap is quite pronounced). But then in real life also there are terrible things like hunger, illnesses and poverty and pollution and ... in many places. Do we want to have that in a fantasy world too? Must a fantasy world be restricted if the player doesn't want that? After all it's fantasy.

If you want to play the femal evil-genius atheletic babarian overloard, why not.

The only thing I would have built in: maybe a certain predisposition of female characters to trust other female characters and male characters to trust other male characters. Something like dwarfs get better along with dwarfs and elves with elves and females with femals and males with males. That would also be a simplification but a justifiable one if you ask me.

avatar
Trilarion: Sex or race is just cosmetics or whatever the player wants it to be. No artificial restrictions.
avatar
PetrusOctavianus: Then why have different sexes or races in games?
For you, so that you can identify yourself better with it. In your head you can make a nice story around the game and there cosmetics probably plays a role. If you want to play a weak women, go and do it, but you must want it before.
Post edited October 20, 2016 by Trilarion
avatar
Goodaltgamer: I extra only concentrated on the Gold series otherwise a never-ending story and also different thinking behind ;)

I do not remember SSI using another rule set, do you have examples there?
SSI games that use 2nd edition:
Eye of the Beholder series
Dungeon Hack
Dark Sun series
I believe Menzoberenzan and the Ravenloft games as well

None of these games use the female strength rule, which was not present in 2e.
(Also, I note that racial level caps are much higher in these games as well due to them being much higher in 2e than in 1e.)