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General discussionPlease fix your user agreement to allow reverse engineering and tinkering when it's fair use, to retain your DRM free stance(206 posts)(206 posts)
(206 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted January 02, 2015
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catpower1980: I hate to burst your bubble bro (in fact, I like it...) but if you feel so self-righteous, why didn't you start your whining when the new EULA was out?
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Rixasha: Perhaps this just didn't seem to matter, since surely there would not be any digital restrictions on a DRM-free store that needed circumventing for fair use through means of reverse-engineering or disassembly. This language would then be a no-op. However, it was recently discovered otherwise.
Yes, that's exactly the point. TOS itself is only a potential for a problem. Actual issue occurs when TOS is combined with this DRM type of restriction.

However thinking of it, it's problematic from other perspectives too. Let's say lgogdownloader developers would decide to add Galaxy support soon, and GOG won't really follow up on their promise to fully document Galaxy protocol. What will be left? Reverse engineering of it. According to this TOS it's forbidden (even though it's clearly fair use for interoperability purposes). It's not DRM related but still not something that I think is good. Fixing TOS in that place to explicitly allow fair use would help this issue as well.
Post edited January 02, 2015 by shmerl
Posted January 02, 2015
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DeathDiciple: Considering the amount of people that don't give a damn about what's stated in EULAs, as well as the mentality/what's considered 'acceptable', soon we'll keep signing up on organ donations and giving up newborn, and noone will notice... going the easiest/most common path possible is likely going to get them more/easier deals with other companies, and not significant enough backslash to care about.
In general that may be the case, but we are talking about GOG after all. Community at least still expects them to value their stated principles and this is quite strongly related to one of them.
Posted January 02, 2015
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catpower1980: I hate to burst your bubble bro (in fact, I like it...) but if you feel so self-righteous, why didn't you start your whining when the new EULA was out?
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shmerl: Do you follow every single thread on GOG forums? Or may be you read this TOS / EULA on daily basis to see if anything changed? You guessed it. I simply had no clue such change was introduced. And I bet a lot of other GOG users didn't know it either. So don't be so surprised that this subject is being discussed now. Thanks to immi101 who actually brought attention to this subject.
It's really not hard to see the daily threads as the forum isn't very active. It just takes 5min per day to read the titles and the then choosing which thread to read. Even more so when it's an official thread by GOG staff with a few pages of replies. Even if I'm uneducated and English is nt my language I know what reverse-engineneering means, not my fault or gog's fault if you wanna play the victim... Must be hard for you to live in this world with so much closed-source stuff around ;)
Posted January 02, 2015
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catpower1980: It's really not hard to see the daily threads as the forum isn't very active. It just takes 5min per day to read the titles and the then choosing which thread to read. Even more so when it's an official thread by GOG staff with a few pages of replies.
No, I don't expect everyone to read all GOG forum threads (or even titles) especially the way forum is organized now when everything is one big pile.

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catpower1980: Even if I'm uneducated and English is nt my language I know what reverse-engineneering means, not my fault or gog's fault if you wanna play the victim...
I'm not sure at all what you are talking about (i.e. fault, victim and etc). If you had hard time understanding my first post, in short the problem is that reverse engineering in combination with DRM is forbidden in many countries even for fair use by default. So if GOG doesn't clarify that exception, it would mean according to their TOS it's forbidden as well (such as in examples brought above). So the whole idea is to point to GOG how to fix this by explicitly allowing in TOS those activities when it's fair use. Then it can disable those anticircumvention prohibitions.
Post edited January 02, 2015 by shmerl
Posted January 02, 2015
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shmerl: Do you follow every single thread on GOG forums? Or may be you read this TOS / EULA on daily basis to see if anything changed? You guessed it. I simply had no clue such change was introduced. And I bet a lot of other GOG users didn't know it either. So don't be so surprised that this subject is being discussed now. Thanks to immi101 who actually brought attention to this subject.
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catpower1980: It's really not hard to see the daily threads as the forum isn't very active. It just takes 5min per day to read the titles and the then choosing which thread to read. Even more so when it's an official thread by GOG staff with a few pages of replies. Even if I'm uneducated and English is nt my language I know what reverse-engineneering means, not my fault or gog's fault if you wanna play the victim... Must be hard for you to live in this world with so much closed-source stuff around ;)
I am sorry, I don't want to follow GOG daily even though it just take 5 minute every day.

It must be easy for you as you willing give up more and more of your customer rights.
Posted January 02, 2015
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BlackMageJ: I am by no means an expert on legal matters, but surely they don't need to specify an exemption for fair use- if it's fair use, it's allowed anyway, and an EULA can't deprive you of that right?
not all countries know the concept of "fair use" in their legal system in the way the US does. Germany for example.

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Niggles: That type of the agreement is pretty much standard for most software out there from my understanding
indeed it is. There is a difference however between Ubisoft making such an agreement or GOG doing it.
- Aside from actually sueing you, publisher/developer don't really have an easy way to punish you for breaking the EULA. Because of this gamers are already trained quite well to ignore all the legal stuff.. However when speaking about game stores like steam or gog, these companies could easily suspend or even remove your store account for any misconduct. And then it is the user who would have to go to court, if he wants to protest against it.

- While the big publisher these days seem mostly immune against complaints from the community, we know that GOG _does_ listen to us (sometimes at least :p).

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catpower1980: I hate to burst your bubble bro (in fact, I like it...) but if you feel so self-righteous, why didn't you start your whining when the new EULA was out? Everybody has read it and more or less complied when it was out and now the pro open-source crowd has only learned to read and understand a document properly? Gimme a break ;)
uh, the new policy isn't even in effect yet. So far GOG only posted it and asked for feedback.
Seems like the right timeframe to voice complains, doesn't it?
see here
http://www.gog.com/forum/general/upcoming_update_to_gogcom_policies/page1

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Gnostic: I don't know what's all that mean, but will it prohibit me from modding / hacking the game to cheat?
GOG actually already answered a few questions regarding the new policy in the thread mentioned aboved.
here is what they said about modding:

MODS: Are they not allowed?

Using official mod tools is of course okay, but reverse-engineering a game is not permitted legally unless you have the developer's or publisher's consent to do it. It may however vary on a case-by-case basis so please contact devs/publishers directly in case of doubts!
Posted January 02, 2015
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immi101: GOG actually already answered a few questions regarding the new policy in the thread mentioned aboved.
here is what they said about modding:

MODS: Are they not allowed?

Using official mod tools is of course okay, but reverse-engineering a game is not permitted legally unless you have the developer's or publisher's consent to do it. It may however vary on a case-by-case basis so please contact devs/publishers directly in case of doubts!
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immi101:
To add to that, reverse engineering games themselves can be quite fine if it's fair use as well. Of course GOG have no direct control over what publishers require from the user in their personalized agreements, but they can control their own, like in this case and not put such kind of restrictions in there.
Post edited January 02, 2015 by shmerl
Posted January 02, 2015
For the reference, I just found this quite detailed FAQ: https://www.eff.org/issues/coders/reverse-engineering-faq

A relevant quote:

How Could Contract Law Limit Reverse Engineering?

Most software today comes with EULAs, and EULAs may have “no reverse engineering” clauses. Websites or other internet services also may TOS or TOU that purport to restrict otherwise legal research activities. Researchers and programmers sometimes receive access to code pursuant to an NDA, developer agreement or API agreement that restricts the right to report security flaws. The legal status of contractual prohibitions on security research or vulnerability reporting is still in flux. While it is more likely that a court will enforce a negotiated NDA than a mass market EULA, the law is not clear. Be sure to consult with counsel if the code you want to study is subject to any kind of contractual restriction.
Post edited January 02, 2015 by shmerl
Posted January 02, 2015
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shmerl: ...
You're not alone shmerl, you have my axe, if you want it.
Posted January 02, 2015
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Gnostic: I don't know what's all that mean, but will it prohibit me from modding / hacking the game to cheat?

If I don't like a nerf and want to reverse it, or if the game have kickstarter exclusive content that I can never get even if I want to pay, can I hack it like here?

http://www.gog.com/forum/paper_sorcerer/how_to_hack_and_get_kickstarter_exclusive_you_had_been_missing_out
As I have mentioned in the other thread (the sticky one about the new EULA), this paragraph is already present in most games EULA (taken from a 2008 games installer but it's also present on more recent ones) :

1.License. Company grants you a non-exclusive, non-transferable license to use ..... You agree not to modify or attempt to reverse engineer, decompile, or disassemble the Program, except and only to the extent that such activity is expressly permitted under applicable law notwithstanding this limitation.....

So it's nothing new and AFAIK, even thought it's mentioned in the EULA since the beginning of GoG, they never did anything against modding (on the contrary they did mods spotlight quite often) or non-official patches.
Posted January 02, 2015
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Gersen: 1.License. Company grants you a non-exclusive, non-transferable license to use ..... You agree not to modify or attempt to reverse engineer, decompile, or disassemble the Program, except and only to the extent that such activity is expressly permitted under applicable law notwithstanding this limitation.....

So it's nothing new and AFAIK, even thought it's mentioned in the EULA since the beginning of GoG, they never did anything against modding (on the contrary they did mods spotlight quite often) or non-official patches.
Wrong. The above applies to games themselves. I.e. it's agreement with game owners. The recent one is an agreement with GOG and applies to GOG services and software as well (Galaxy, installer and so on). While GOG have no control over the former, they have control over the later.
Post edited January 02, 2015 by shmerl
Posted January 02, 2015
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shmerl: Wrong. The above applies to games themselves. I.e. it's agreement with game owners. The recent one is an agreement with GOG and applies to GOG services and software as well (Galaxy, installer and so on). While GOG have no control over the former, they have control over the later.
READ THE FOLLOWING TERMS AND CONDITIONS CAREFULLY BEFORE INSTALLING THE PROGRAM. This end user license agreement (this “Agreement”) is a legal agreement between you (an individual or a single entity “You”) and GOG.com or GOG Limited (“Company”) for the accompanying software product which includes computer software and any associated media, printed materials, and/or “online” or electronic documentation (collectively, the “Program”). By installing, copying, or otherwise using the Program, you acknowledge that you have read this Agreement and agree to be bound by the terms. If you do not accept or agree to the terms of this Agreement, do not install or use the Program.

It also cover the installer; you are right that the website wasn't covered before though.
Post edited January 02, 2015 by Gersen
Posted January 02, 2015
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shmerl: Wrong. The above applies to games themselves. I.e. it's agreement with game owners. The recent one is an agreement with GOG and applies to GOG services and software as well (Galaxy, installer and so on). While GOG have no control over the former, they have control over the later.
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Gersen: READ THE FOLLOWING TERMS AND CONDITIONS CAREFULLY BEFORE INSTALLING THE PROGRAM. This end user license agreement (this “Agreement”) is a legal agreement between you (an individual or a single entity “You”) and GOG.com or GOG Limited (“Company”) for the accompanying software product which includes computer software and any associated media, printed materials, and/or “online” or electronic documentation (collectively, the “Program”). By installing, copying, or otherwise using the Program, you acknowledge that you have read this Agreement and agree to be bound by the terms. If you do not accept or agree to the terms of this Agreement, do not install or use the Program.

It also cover the installer; you are right that the website wasn't covered before though.
It's an agreement about the program, i.e. the game. Installer is covered by GOG's TOS separately. If you aren't sure about it, you can ask GOG themselves. Note that the part about reverse engineering is also talking about the "Program" explicitly, i.e. about the game.
Post edited January 02, 2015 by shmerl
Posted January 02, 2015
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shmerl: What exactly are you stunned with? With GOG doing this or with someone actually reading through the TOS and being concerned with this detail? It might sound some legalese gibberish, but it's not irrelevant.

See an example when anticircumvention laws were used for persecution. I'm not saying we should suspect GOG of being that nasty, but such thing in the TOS is not exactly in line with their DRM-free stance.
That's an entirely different matter. No company with any sense would try and prosecute on the basis of breaking an EULA. That would open up a whole can of worms that would backfire on them and just about every other software developer out there.

There's no way an EULA legally stands up to even the most cursory of glances. They collapse under their own weight and to put one before a judge would burst that bubble once and for all.

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shmerl: Or rather restrictions management. That better conveys the intention.
That's what DRM is all about too.
Posted January 02, 2015
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Navagon: No company with any sense would try and prosecute on the basis of breaking an EULA. That would open up a whole can of worms that would backfire on them and just about every other software developer out there.
If not persecute, they can terminate your account. There can be different scenarios which aren't good for the user.

I'd also normally expect that no EULA can take away your rights, but in practice it's more complicated.

See this FAQ: https://www.eff.org/issues/coders/reverse-engineering-faq
Post edited January 02, 2015 by shmerl
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussionPlease fix your user agreement to allow reverse engineering and tinkering when it's fair use, to retain your DRM free stance(206 posts)(206 posts)
(206 posts)