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General discussionOn GNU/Linux, has anyone be able to extract the RAR InnoSetup installers?(652 posts)(652 posts)
(652 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted January 08, 2015
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Magmarock: Why the hell would you not want to use the GOG installer. It's the best thing ever. Leaving little impact on the registry and somehow knowing what the game save files are. Not sure if this happens on the Linux version but still. I really like the GOG installer. I with more companies used it.
Typically, because we want something that's, by the installer's limited definition, broken, because it's just the game resources and not the engine.

For example:
1. Using the Duke Nukem 3D data files on Windows but with the massively enhanced EDuke32 engine rather than the original one.
2. Playing ScummVM-compatible games on Android
3. Unpacking a DOSBox-wrapped game so it can be used with a native Linux or MacOS version of DOSBox without waiting for GOG to renegotiate the list of platforms they're allowed to release it for.

Under those circumstances, the installer's insistence on a working install is detrimental because we have to do the install, copy the files we actually want out, and then immediately uninstall.

Also, that assumes that the GOG installer will actually run. Microsoft has made noises about dropping 32-bit compatibility in Windows 9 but Wine on OSX can't run 64-bit Windows apps because Win64 and 64-bit OSX have different, incompatible rules for which processor registers are clobbered in a context switch.

(And, for many early 32-bit Windows apps, the only reason their original installers work on modern Windows is that Windows detects 16-bit InstallShield launcher stubs and transparently swaps in 32-bit replacements that they got a license to bundle with Windows.)


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ssokolow: I've already provided a large selection of suggestions over in the "Technical discussion only. No politics." counterpart to this thread.
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MasterS.249: Oops.

Have GOG.com Team noticed it? They haven't mentioned it (and checking the thread - haven't yet made a post there). Maybe they can make it the Official Suggestions Thread then? And raise more awareness of it (including through their posts)? The thread was active just 4 days.
I did send a PM to Gowor with a link to that post and, aside from the idea to include a "must run to open a ticket" dxdiag-like "verify that this was installed correctly" utility with each game, that's just summarizing the most refined versions of all the different ideas I proposed in this thread over the course of several pages.
Post edited January 08, 2015 by ssokolow
Posted January 08, 2015
Thank you GOG :)
Posted January 08, 2015
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GOG.com: To that end we will be removing the mentioned archive protection from the select Windows installers that had it until a better solution, both technically and philosophically, is ready. Please continue sharing your suggestions regarding such a solution in this topic - your feedback is very appreciated.
Thank you.

For other solutions in those areas (and better Linux support too), I advise to hire ssokolow for your team:
http://www.gog.com/forum/general/on_gnulinux_has_anyone_be_able_to_extract_the_rar_innosetup_installers/post466
https://www.gog.com/forum/general/tech_gog_new_windows_installer_a_technical_thread/post27
Post edited January 08, 2015 by Klumpen0815
Posted January 08, 2015
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GOG.com: On a side note, we’d also like to invite Captain Obvious here for a moment to remind that GOG offers and supports games compatible with specific operating systems and prepared to be installed on a given system using our included installer for a reason.
And if that were an unfortunate end result of a properly working solution I'd be ok with that. Not "OK" ok, I'd be sad that I had to install Windows or wait for Wine to figure it out, but I can't justify complaining about it.
That being said, this change was not a properly working solution. I've been a developer in a caustic environment and this change reeks of management telling developers exactly what to do, either pushing for a specific solution or a demanding timeline that prevents the developer from fully investigating the issue, and that is a terrible way to work. It leads to unhappiness and bad code, bad solutions, and PR disasters. This is why I said I was concerned for the company.

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GOG.com: That is why we cannot guarantee that our installers will never change and will forever remain compatible with each of such unsupported tools.
But that isn't good enough. Imagine the year 2038. GOG has unfortunately gone out of business a few years before, but regardless I still have my collection of DRM free games. Thinking I want to have me some old school Duke Nukem 3D (the modern remake of the remake just not holding a candle to the original aesthetic) I boot up Windows 19 and try to run the installer. Oh, but it doesn't work in modern operating systems because of the "protection". The protection, while doing exactly what you intended it to do, had broken forwards compatibility as well sideways compatibility. I'm savvy enough to be able to build DosBox from source to enable me to play the game, I just can't get at the data files. It's almost as if my rights have been managed digitally.
This is the #1 reason I buy DRM free, knowing that I'll still be able to use them in the future. If you can't guarantee that (in so much as anyone can guarantee anything) then that is, effectively (in ultimate form if not literally in name) DRM, and I still have no business with GoG.
Posted January 08, 2015
Thanks, GOG.

PS: In the future when we have linux support for all games we won't care about the windows installers. =P (Someone can dream =) )
Posted January 08, 2015
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WizardStan: But that isn't good enough. Imagine the year 2038. GOG has unfortunately gone out of business a few years before, but regardless I still have my collection of DRM free games. Thinking I want to have me some old school Duke Nukem 3D (the modern remake of the remake just not holding a candle to the original aesthetic) I boot up Windows 19 and try to run the installer. Oh, but it doesn't work in modern operating systems because of the "protection". The protection, while doing exactly what you intended it to do, had broken forwards compatibility as well sideways compatibility. I'm savvy enough to be able to build DosBox from source to enable me to play the game, I just can't get at the data files. It's almost as if my rights have been managed digitally.
This is the #1 reason I buy DRM free, knowing that I'll still be able to use them in the future. If you can't guarantee that (in so much as anyone can guarantee anything) then that is, effectively (in ultimate form if not literally in name) DRM, and I still have no business with GoG.
Exactly. I have tons of old CD-ROMs but they'll remain useful into the indefinite future because, with so much free space just lying fallow, early CD-ROMs almost universally kept the entire game unpacked on the disc so the installer just needed to copy some files and set some config keys.

As long as the discs don't bit-rot, the "anyone with skill can volunteer as a maintainer" aspect of an open-source tool like DOSBox or ScummVM guarantees that old CD-ROMs are good as long as you've got a drive to read them.

I just want the same principle to apply to my GOG installers.
Post edited January 08, 2015 by ssokolow
Posted January 08, 2015
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Magmarock: Why the hell would you not want to use the GOG installer. It's the best thing ever. Leaving little impact on the registry and somehow knowing what the game save files are. Not sure if this happens on the Linux version but still. I really like the GOG installer. I with more companies used it.
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ssokolow: Typically, because we want something that's, by the installer's limited definition, broken, because it's just the game resources and not the engine.

For example:
1. Using the Duke Nukem 3D data files on Windows but with the massively enhanced EDuke32 engine rather than the original one.
2. Playing ScummVM-compatible games on Android
3. Unpacking a DOSBox-wrapped game so it can be used with a native Linux or MacOS version of DOSBox without waiting for GOG to renegotiate the list of platforms they're allowed to release it for.

Under those circumstances, the installer's insistence on a working install is detrimental because we have to do the install, copy the files we actually want out, and then immediately uninstall.

Also, that assumes that the GOG installer will actually run. Microsoft has made noises about dropping 32-bit compatibility in Windows 9 but Wine on OSX can't run 64-bit Windows apps because Win64 and 64-bit OSX have different, incompatible rules for which processor registers are clobbered in a context switch.

(And, for many early 32-bit Windows apps, the only reason their original installers work on modern Windows is that Windows detects 16-bit InstallShield launcher stubs and transparently swaps in 32-bit replacements that they got a license to bundle with Windows.)
I strongly doubt that MS will drop 32bit they are not that stupid, besides I've tested 32bit apps in the Win 10 preview and they work fine. Even so GOG will update the installers. If you need the game data that badly then just install the game on Windows or a virtual Box and then grab the data you need and save it somewhere. Going through the process of extracting an exe just seems like unnecessary busy work.
Posted January 08, 2015
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GOG.com: On a side note, we’d also like to invite Captain Obvious here for a moment to remind that GOG offers and supports games compatible with specific operating systems and prepared to be installed on a given system using our included installer for a reason. This is, from the very first day, our way of offering a hassle-free, user-friendly and welcoming experience for millions of our users, no matter what their technical skill level may be.
HASSLE FREE!!! USER FRIENDLY!!! What on earth are you talking about. Hassle free is a very strange and alien consent to some people. What I'm trying to say is no matter how simple and straight forward something is, there will always be people who will want to do things the hard way. I've been putting time into learning Linux and this is one of the hardest lessons I've had to learn. In all seriousness though, I'm a big fan of the GOG and I hope that as far is ease of use goes they never change.
Posted January 08, 2015
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Magmarock: Going through the process of extracting an exe just seems like unnecessary busy work.
it isn't. It is as simple as unpacking a zip/rar archive. one command ... -> et voila.
That's more convenient than downloading and installing windows, don't you think?
Post edited January 08, 2015 by immi101
Posted January 08, 2015
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WizardStan: But that isn't good enough. Imagine the year 2038. GOG has unfortunately gone out of business a few years before, but regardless I still have my collection of DRM free games. Thinking I want to have me some old school Duke Nukem 3D (the modern remake of the remake just not holding a candle to the original aesthetic) I boot up Windows 19 and try to run the installer. Oh, but it doesn't work in modern operating systems because of the "protection". The protection, while doing exactly what you intended it to do, had broken forwards compatibility as well sideways compatibility. I'm savvy enough to be able to build DosBox from source to enable me to play the game, I just can't get at the data files. It's almost as if my rights have been managed digitally.
This is the #1 reason I buy DRM free, knowing that I'll still be able to use them in the future. If you can't guarantee that (in so much as anyone can guarantee anything) then that is, effectively (in ultimate form if not literally in name) DRM, and I still have no business with GoG.
This post is, in my honest opinion. Not grounded in reality. Don't want to offend anyone but yeah this is pretty out there.

Okay first and foremost by 2039 you might not even be alive by then, not saying there's any reason you shouldn't but it's pretty far out there. Secondly there is no such thing as future proof, EVER!!

By that time computers maybe so different as we know them that nothing from today's system may work at all. Even when you do extract the data that doesn't guarantee anything. The files might be so old that they are unreadable. When GOG do something I don't like I'm very quick to speak it but when they are criticize for something like this I'm just as quick to deafened them because this is really silly when you think about it. They are just quality assuring their software. If the game data is that impotent to you then simply connect a 4tb drive to your pc and install all of your GOG games to it and there's your game data. There isn't any DRM GOG are just making sure that people don't inject viruses into their games.
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Magmarock: Going through the process of extracting an exe just seems like unnecessary busy work.
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immi101: it isn't. It is as simple as unpacking a zip/rar archive. one command ... -> et voila.
That's more convenient than downloading and installing windows, don't you think?
No I don't, you click the little picture and it works. You don't download and install another program to view and then extract with the chance of problems as a results of not making proper entries into the registry or the files being set up properly. You click the little picture and it works. If you change the directory the next game automatically follows. Best installer ever made You click the little picture and it works.
Post edited January 08, 2015 by Magmarock
Posted January 08, 2015
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Magmarock: No I don't, you click the little picture and it works. You don't download and install another program to view and then extract with the chance of problems as a results of not making proper entries into the registry or the files being set up properly. You click the little picture and it works. If you change the directory the next game automatically follows. Best installer ever made You click the little picture and it works.
did you actually read the post you replied to?(The one talking about scummvm,eduke32,etc)

In case of those games we don't need registry entries, we don't even need the .exe of the game in some cases. All we need is the game resources.
Posted January 08, 2015
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WizardStan: I'm savvy enough to be able to build DosBox from source to enable me to play the game, I just can't get at the data files. It's almost as if my rights have been managed digitally. This is the #1 reason I buy DRM free, knowing that I'll still be able to use them in the future. If you can't guarantee that (in so much as anyone can guarantee anything) then that is, effectively (in ultimate form if not literally in name) DRM, and I still have no business with GoG.
You are savvy enough to be able to use DosBox but not savv enough to use Wine to run the installers ? Or not savvy enough to, as soon as GoG gone under extract your installer and save the data files in the format of your choice. Seriously, if you want to be able to use your games in X years you will have to actually work for it; don't expect somebody to hold your hands.

They cannot and never will be able to guarantee you that the games will still be able in the future, they guarantee you that the games are DRM-free and run "now", nothing more nothing else, for the rest you are on your own.
Posted January 08, 2015
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Magmarock: I strongly doubt that MS will drop 32bit they are not that stupid, besides I've tested 32bit apps in the Win 10 preview and they work fine.
Nonetheless, the fact that they're already making noise about it probably means that they hope to follow Apple's lead in having less than the two decades of backwards compatibility that 16-bit EXEs enjoyed.

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Magmarock: Even so GOG will update the installers. If you need the game data that badly then just install the game on Windows or a virtual Box and then grab the data you need and save it somewhere. Going through the process of extracting an exe just seems like unnecessary busy work.
Yeah, sure. It's a lot slower and more difficult to run "innoextract setup_some_game.exe" or "unrar x setup_some_game-1.bin" than it is to download a 30-day trial copy of Windows from modern.ie, import it into my copy of VirtualBox, boot it, set up shared folders so I can copy files in and out, copy the installer in, run it, wait through the install process, copy the files I want out of the VM, and then halt the VM and reset it to the original snapshot so the 30 day trial won't expire.

...and you didn't address the example I gave about things like EDuke32 on Windows, where it's still quicker and easier to run innoextract, innounp, or WinRAR rather than waiting through the installer AND the uninstaller.
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WizardStan: I'm savvy enough to be able to build DosBox from source to enable me to play the game, I just can't get at the data files. It's almost as if my rights have been managed digitally. This is the #1 reason I buy DRM free, knowing that I'll still be able to use them in the future. If you can't guarantee that (in so much as anyone can guarantee anything) then that is, effectively (in ultimate form if not literally in name) DRM, and I still have no business with GoG.
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Gersen: You are savvy enough to be able to use DosBox but not savv enough to use Wine to run the installers ? Or not savvy enough to, as soon as GoG gone under extract your installer and save the data files in the format of your choice. Seriously, if you want to be able to use your games in X years you will have to actually work for it; don't expect somebody to hold your hands.

They cannot and never will be able to guarantee you that the games will still be able in the future, they guarantee you that the games are DRM-free and run "now", nothing more nothing else, for the rest you are on your own.
Wine already can't run 64-bit Windows apps on OSX because they use processor registers in incompatible ways. His point is that innoextract, innounp, and unrar are open-source and, thus, are more future-proof than the installer's code and at least as future proof as things like DOSBox and ScummVM. (Possibly more so, given that games are more complex and easier to botch than extractors.)

If you can both unpack and play a game using only open-source code, then you can be certain that it's future proof.
Post edited January 08, 2015 by ssokolow
Posted January 08, 2015
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Magmarock: HASSLE FREE!!! USER FRIENDLY!!! What on earth are you talking about. Hassle free is a very strange and alien consent to some people. What I'm trying to say is no matter how simple and straight forward something is, there will always be people who will want to do things the hard way.
Please take a moment here and seriously think about this.
How do you think we are able to play all these decades old classic games. How to you think projects like ScummVM, dosbox and others were created? They were created by people who were not happy to be constrained by the environment the games were originally meant for. The wanted to explore new possibilities, wanted to tinker around, wanted to do things the hard way. And thanks to the countless hours spent by those people you can now easily and conveniently play those old games on todays computers. Without these people the catalogue here on GOG would be a lot smaller.
Think about this the next time you scoff at people who don't share your mindset of "click, play and be happy".
Posted January 08, 2015
I still don't like the new look of the GOG web site, but I like that GOG does care about how the community feels on other topics.
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussionOn GNU/Linux, has anyone be able to extract the RAR InnoSetup installers?(652 posts)(652 posts)
(652 posts)