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Stanari: 10/10 would ship yogbler again

Not on a computer; bler, did you ever look at trent again?
Nopers. Well, not outside of the 3 hours of posts pertaining to Dess.

Skyping at the moment - will elaborate after
Ok. Sorry, was midway through the nacho post when spouse called, so I kinda just rambled and wrapped.

Didn't address Nacho's Brasas question.

@Nacho: In the big picture, my D2 no fly list is tammy/ix/stan/babark/cristi pretty much in that order. Like Tammy would have to maaaajorly fuck up to be on the table, and cristi would have to slip pretty significantly. Not that I'm hard-reading cristi as town, but town-leaning and I just don't think the data points to cristi+dess as likely. Did not look at cristi+RW, which is perhaps a blind spot. And if it's multiple, then who knows.

That leaves 5: nacho/trent/brasas, yogs, and lift. Probably also in that order except yogs is ...his own special category. And I've changed my mind on him 100 times already this game.

Lynching in nacho/trent/brasas feels like shooting in the dark and gun to my head I'm kinda town-reading all y'all, though I will give trent a more full re-read.

Trying to be open-minded about Lift, since I think I always end up scum-reading him (in 2 normal games once he was town [d2], once neutral 1xSK [d3], one mini-game where he was scum and I wanted to shoot him but died too fast while trying to reason with drealmer who was RPing homocidal mania as town).

Thus the seeking opinions. I can throw out a number of things that he's done that I find noteworthy, but it may just well be tunneling and difference in style/view.

So short version is I think I'd really have to be talked into Brasas, and so far yogs ain't doing it. I can't even tell seriously how serious yogs is about it.

Other notable things about Brasas: 1224 Bler swtichs from babs to Dess (counter 4x4) Lift votes babark in 1231 (stays, 4x5); Trent unvotes dess for babark in 1237 (3x6); Brasas votes dess in 1239, which brought the count to Dess 4; babs 6. (all counts per cristi's post

So relatively speaking, if he were looking to bus/distance, it's not a bad place to do it. Moreso if he thinks babs is either not going to claim or claim vanilla (as I think Lift did, and I probably had made a similar comment) .He also proposes consolidating the votes onto wagons, which on the one hand is a towny thing to do, but with the count 4x6 might tend push towards the larger wagon, esp. at the end of a long-ass day.

Yogs switches to babs to make 3x7 and then babs claims. And all that could just be coincidence and him trying to do the right thing to avoid no lynch.

There are two other things that raise my eyebrow a bit, but ...I'd much rather resolve Lift. Still, I'm definitely not clearing Brasas, and would probably rank him below cristi and trent.

bump? though it'll take me a few to write up a trent-view anyway.
thought: if necessary throw PR claimants at bler instead of lynching them
@Trent : Are you scum?

Stanari: Not on a computer; bler, did you ever look at trent again?
Ok, just did. 99 posts and a female Husky was one.

General trent points I didn't mention in the first gog-player summary:
1) Regardless of alignment, he tends to be the 2nd-3rd player on a wagon unless it's someone he's actively defending. While perhaps not the analyst type to make a really compelling case for someone, he votes. Nothing out of the ordinary in his play here, though again NAI.
2) He hasn't played in...a few months? He's very positive here (can get grumpy/lose enthusiasm after chaining games together). Here he's present, focused, active. Also NAI but notable.
3) His two scum games I can think of (academy, all-scum) he's lurked. In the all-scum game I would've been on him if he weren't my teammate. In the academy game he pointed to RL distractions.

@Trent : ok, more seriously, can you point to a scum game of yours were you were moderately to highly active?

His EOD feels fairly legit to me, honestly. The no lynch vote when he could've voted Nacho (absent 3 days at that point) still strikes me as more noteworthy than his final (the one that concerns Stan). I have a guess as to 2-3 factors that probably combined to make him throw up his hands and go no lynch at the end. But I'll zip my lip in case you really want to press him on it.

The RW/trent combo feels a little odd, but in a way that I'm not sure I buy as teammates. RW votes doc in 720, Trent in 722. Trent comes off dess down the stretch to vote no lynch, and RW uses that as justification for also voting No Lynch. On the former, Trent certainly would vote following a teammate if it fit his tendency (did in all-scum without blinking) but I'm not sure RW gets off the wagon there and points to trent. In voting for dess RW'd framed it so that he'd blame tammy if dess flipped town, and wyrm if dess flipped scum. (though presumably he knew which it would actually be, he had a scapegoat). Does he point to a teammate to justify no lynch? He doesn't scapegoat trent the same way, but perhaps just doesn't want the attention since he's just hopped off a bus?

I also feel like trent is explaining his votes, by and large, but it doesn't feel like he's overexplaining. His frustration with the gamestate at times feels earnest and more consistent with town ends (general encouragement of involvement/voting as much/moreso than pushing specific cases).

Eyebrow things:
1) The no lynch over absent-nacho vote, both because it potentially looks like protecting a teammate (watched Hijack do something similar in the all-scum game in my face to save teammate-Ix from mod-kill) and because at the time his vote wasn't on anyone. So what's the point of changing from no vote to no lynch?
2) 489 very light shade on agent but sticks with Ix vote. Could be honest or warning a teammate he can't look away forever. 499 makes the same point a little more strongly after Nacho pokes him on it. RW shows up as replacement in 543 so it didn't go further.
3) 635 makes kind of an odd semantic distinction over the specific word choice of "friends" vs. "people yogs has played with before" that seems pretty nitpicky and possibly a deflection. Though I tend to agree with his follow-up that the whole thing was a tangent.
4) Can't find the post at the moment (7xx?), but he does give his general voting criteria, and Dess would seem to have hit them pretty well (posting just to post for one), and no attention from Trent. Is that an intentional blind eye or just generic blind eye b/c he was tunneling Ix then doc/babs?

To the extent there's "evidence" at that point the only people I can see that had really poked Dess were Tammy (397) and Nacho (502). I'd made a comment that dess and agent "should post more" and I think that was the 3rd most serious push on dess until Stan and I started discussing him somewhere around 900-1000. So at the very least Trent wasn't the only one to not notice dess sliding by.

And worst of all:
5) 643 promises to get nekkid and sing a song, then doesn't. Booooo!

IDK, in 99 posts that's a whole lotta not much to me. If it starts looking like multi-teams I'll look at it again w/ new evidence, but this smells like town trent to me. Albeit Ma Barton could certainly use a bath and some fruity soaps.


Stanari: thought: if necessary throw PR claimants at bler instead of lynching them
@bler look at the high school game that krypsyn hosted, I was scum (strongman) that game (was an awesome game that came down to the end and Sage won it for town)
EBWOP: Forgot that Trent was SK in my asylum game (and the only one who knew a large chunk of the setup). He lurked pretty heavily D1 there too - 6 straight posts that were 1 sentence in length, only generally expanding when playing defense.

D2 he tried to get more active and a combo of something like Krypsyn/yogs/wyrm/RW sniffed him out and he got lynched, even though town could easily have voted for the paranoid cop who helped lynch the other town cop D1. Didn't help that when he fake-claimed his N1 activity he picked Krypsyn's box.

It was pretty amusing, albeit it shortened the game quite a bit. :)

Here are a few sample trent vote posts from the academy game. Here's one where he pretends not to know the setup.

He had fewer, longer posts in that game.

In the all-scum game he was big on short, more frequent posts

with the occasional longer post

trentonlf: @bler look at the high school game that krypsyn hosted, I was scum (strongman) that game (was an awesome game that came down to the end and Sage won it for town)
Thanks. Have to head to the airport (pickup only) and probably off for the night.
This is an odd turn to this convo... I'll take it from the top this time.

TammyTown: I do need to go back and look at the end of day yesterday and how that played out as well as read the flavor from the kills.
Wish you speedy improvement.

And who were you thinking of moving to? And why didn't you? I mean I noticed you forgot to unvote, and was wondering if it was a ruse similar to my two fake votes earlier. Since that was not the case, despite having you as top town billing, would like to know. Just to calibrate on your future pushes / insights.

And on the quoted bit, please do. Especially with some oldtimers having what seems like a collective brainfart...

yogsloth: Brasas sure was working hard to save Dessimu, though.
Despite the "All cretans are liars" mindfuckery, this is as good a place as any to try to respond to this senseless slander (which went on) in as disciplined way I can.

I wanted to change a vowel there, but that would be unfair if funny, you're no cretin... bottom line I think you're running interference for Nacho, and that your tonal and engagement shift is just a tad too much. And this being the first time I'm actually playing with you I confess I am leaning towards a "policy lynch yog at first opportunity" approach. Because, to return the backhanded compliments, you are indeed brilliant at pushing. You manage through sheer willpower to half convince me I'm scum. Then I remember even Drealmer is not that much of a bastard and I'm not that good. In that order...

1 - I had Dess as a null read - so duh that you can find evidence of my "believing" him town, and ignore evidence of my "believing" him wolf. That said, in my D1 reality the benefit of the doubt leaned towards town and those 75/25 probabilites, hence why I was quite clear when voting Dess that it was a logic play. Not a read, not a gut play, nothing but cold calculation.

2 - I was probably the one person that despite bringing up the no lynch idea tried harder than anyone to redeem that mess by actually trying to drive a flip, even if it would be a mislynch. (you being one of those that actually voted no lynch, which you're pretending did not happen quite admirably btw)

3 - I still consider Dess was lurking and that lurking is his meta style. I told so to Cristi and I hope she groked it, but I'll elaborate for everyone. Also, btw, I saw Tammy pointing out she wanted attention on anyone "defending" Dess like that and was ok to be looked at - only natural. (though I still can't fathom how someone can twist my actions into defending Dess...)

Digression on Lurking: Whatever, I suspect some kind of semantic disagreement here so let me elaborate. I see offensive players and defensive players, more active and more passive styles so to speak. Dess, and even Cristi, Trent or Krypsyn are usually lurkers. This does not mean they have no impact on the game, it's a style thing, not a value of contributions thing. They're not useless as the usual kumbayah counter goes. It's a style thing that helps hide however, and so I agree with you (ironically) enough, that lurkers should be pushed to participate and eventually lynched to mitigate the risk of making the late game a purely logical probability exercise instead of an actual social game. I think I mentioned it somewhere already - lurking breaks the magic circle IMO. Lurkers are not actually playing the game. I find that a bit blergh (no pun intended). But I think I put those emotions to the side and compartmentalize well enough.

I don't know, I want to go on but I think that mostly covers the basis. And as usual I rambled. But no time to clean it up. Will have to do for now.

bler144: So I'd like to hear your Nacho case, definitely, but if it involves Nacho+Dess, I'll tell you right now it's going to be a hard sell for me.

bler144: "Laura (docbear) almost a derpclear, but it likely wasn't a role slip, so pretty much got nothing "

Would you say you're more or less certain of that now?
Perhaps I was not clear earlier. Despite not excluding other scenarios (only two really, and the continuum in between), my working one is the multiball idea. That does not exclude babark being town, just makes it less likely. So I am less certain of my derpclear than I was. But it's a head thing. Gut still pulls in that direction, for that particular role. I say role notice. Because the farther I get from docbear the less I like babark. But that can be unrelated to the game, so I'm cautious around it. And notice I said like, the word scum or wolf did not make an appearance.

bler144: 4) Jeesh, you are the paranoid one.
duh, it's the name of the game?

bler144: ... then followed with a gamestate analysis that was fairly unfocused (it's 5/5/5 and everyone alive is scum!...or it's something else entirely!). ...
The numbers were an aproximation for ilustrative purposes. You might have noticed I already decided who I am not voting for and what my gameplan is. The only thing unfocusing me (or rather trying to) is Yogs.

PS: You amusingly enough got the inertia comment to mean the opposite you intended? Unless that was a very subtle self-deprecating joke? I wouldn't put that past you :)

bler144: 1092 criticizes Stan for "lurker focus in target-rich environment" though I'm not entirely clear on what his alternative was (I didn't full-read him, just Dess-related posts)
See reply to Yogs higher.

On the quoted, I was explicit on my alternatives / preferences when I voted Dess.

And lastly, based on what comes after:

Marie, I don't feel like making out today.

I will say that when I saw Wyrm had bought it, mystified as I was, at least I thought the amount of trolling would diminish and the game would be easier to read. Congrats on proving me wrong.

As a backhanded compliment of sorts (tis the season...) I will risk a trombone joke and say you're a full fledged orchestra. Yogs did not give you enough credit.

yogsloth: RW. RW who? Does Brasas know?
This is ironic. RW was probably one of the few that - like babark - I actually have had significant interactions with in the forum.

Unless you're trying to imply I was ignoring RW? If so, duh. I think I actually had him on the vote before Dess list though. Certainly Agent's lurkiness had pinged me. But like with Nacho I was in a weird zone, where the logic I liked, but something stank.

Could be confirmation bias though. We know his flip now.

bler144: @Brasas, what's your take on Lift's proposed scum-hunting approach?

Both as an analysis of it's usefulness as a method, and in terms of whether you think he's serious or pulling your leg.
I speed read his post. He's too far from where I am. So I deleted from RAM pretty much. Your questions are a bit too specific so what did I miss? I mean... I actually intend to lok at him closer when I have the time, depending on how it goes with Nacho. So like, he's Dead Man Walking? Why pay attention? I'm that good if you haven't heard... Yogs says so, so it must be true. ;)

Actually, let me be explicit... I suspect I'm too subtle for my own good sometimes. That ^ was me throwing shade on my game focus again: Nacho. Via Yogs, but still Nacho.

Nachomamma8: snip

Stanari: thought: if necessary throw PR claimants at bler instead of lynching them
hmmm now that's an idea

Speed read the rest. Running out.
Lift's argument about all scum being on babark's wagon feels off. Similar to RWarehall's argument about the SK. I'm just not buying it. It feels contrived.

yogs case on Brasas doesn't make much sense to me either. I could see a case for Brasas running interference for babark....don't see it for Dessi. Between the time that Tammy first voted Dessi and Brasas voting for Dessi, Brasas had a single post. There is evidence in this post for potential interference but the argument feels too strong base just on this post.

If we have a single scum team, I'm tracking with this: (emphasis added)

Nachomamma8: Bler, I'm not sure why you laid out the framework for a case on Brasas and then asked for yogsloth to fill in the blanks. At this current point in time, I am far more interested in your take on Brasas than I am yogsloth's; for one, I'm fairly confident that the remaining scum are as simple as yogsloth/Lift and, if one of those flips town or there's one more to find, I'm looking at trenton/cristi before I'm looking at Brasas.
If we have multiple scum teams I could see a team of brasas/babark/?. What seems weird in this scenario is that brasas is pushing for multiple teams. Do you do that on a team that is basically being sidelined so far Today? Haven't had time to really flesh this one out.

That's what I got for now. The past two days were a blur. Need to re-read what's happened since Sunday. Hope to have more time tomorrow evening.
Why a scum team of brasas/babark? I mean if I gather that correctly from the majority of the posts, babark is seen as quite towny. I repeat: doc claim without counter-claim. That either means: babark's claim is true or town doesn't have a doctor at all. Currently I tend to believe the former.

What pings me though is Nacho's contradiction in #1454 to my supposed statement that babark must be scum because he wasn't hammered. I never put it that way. I said either he's scum himself or there were already several scum on his train. And I still think that makes sense. Yes, hammering draws attention, as does being on a train on a townie (to a lesser degree). But scum wins as a team and if RWare would have been the only scum on the train at L-1 it would have been logical to risk attention to one more scum member and hammer. Yes, it happened before that scum didn't hammer when it would have been logical to do so, but that was Fantasy and it was her first game. So she made a mistake. I don't think that's the case here. I believe that most players here are quite experienced, and therefore scum must have had a good reason not to hammer, and already being on the train just was the best reason for not hammering that came to my mind. But maybe I'm wrong. But in any case Nacho's post somehow feels as if he didn't really read and makes an argument out of something half-read just for arguments sake. I.e. either he's a lurker disinterested in the game or he's scum trying to throw some more dirt my way. Well, he's been lurky all Day 1 too, which makes him hard to read. Maybe that's exactly how he wants it. In any case he joins yog as one of my lynchables today.

The only ones I am sure I won't lynch today are Tammy and babark. Even Ix might still be faking it. "Yea, I investigated someone who wasn't home, but I won't say who." ... then, after noticing that Tammy had already claimed ... "Yea, I totally investigated her and my read totally fits to what she already said anyhow..." might be true. Might also be conveniently faked.
"There is scum on his wagon or he is scum because he hasn't yet been hammered" - I find this premise in full to be ridiculous for the reasons I've already stated, I don't think that an L-1 wagon means anything significant. What part of your argument have I skimmed over?
was going to post the change of stages but I've got to go through and make sure bler isn't talking in code and that is going to take a while

9am wednesday, the time and day I said everyone had to have a contributory post by, is when I planned to switch the stages, fyi (I can't figure how that was hard to guess.)
Post edited October 05, 2016 by drealmer7
Lift - I don't think the argument about the no hammer really mean much this game. As far as I can tell there is no hammer this particular game. It says that majority does not end the day, so it does not work the way that normal games do. This kind of thing happens on MU as well when no majority is set.

But why aren't you actually doing anything with the theory? It's easy enough to find who had the opportunity to hammer and didn't. Why not look into that if you think it matters so much?

And I gotta say I'm a bit perplexed at your focus on why nobody hammered babark, someone you believe is town, and not the failed dessimu wagon, who we know was scum.

Which brings me to you. At the end of the day, after babark claimed doctor, you opted to forgo the next wagon with the most votes that had the best possibility for a lynch to move to yogsloth who didn't have a vote on him. Can you explain this? You also suggest that no lynching was a bad idea, but then you place your vote on yogsloth, which effectively helped to make sure a no lynch did, in fact, occur.

The votecount looked like this two posts before your vote for yogsloth. Now you were willing to lynch babark, even though you didn't see anything scummy about him and were townreading him in order to end the day as explained here


Brasas - My attempts to no lynch were for the sole purpose of following the rules. I intended to revote dessimu the second time. I got cold feet near the end mostly in part because several people were liking dessim somewhat and I, myself, liked one of his last posts. I also disliked Quad's last post and when Bler moved there, I thought maybe what i had seen in each as scum and town respectively were mixed. But what I realized was that what I did like about dess was just a reasonable sounding post, which is not alignment indicative, and Quad's was a bit of an awkward phrasing but it was regarding his time available not about anything to do with the game, so ultimately I dismissed both.

I have a tendency to panic at lynch time and think everything is all wrong and all my reads are wrong and get cold feet on a lynch I've been pushing. My consideration of getting off of dessimu was a produce of that. I'm not sure what you get out of my reasoning though because I did not want a no lynch, the no lynch votes were simply for rule adherence sake, and while I did consider moving elsewhere I didn't.


Oh and heh while rereading through Lift, I came across some dessimu things I didn't like but just added to the general dislike since people were wondering what I saw there. There was the point that bler mentioned that was the first thing I disliked but other than that there were little things like him asking if anyone had questions for him or wondering why nobody was poking at him. Town can do these things too, but with him it felt like scum posting for the sake of posting and trying to look active without actually engaging. I forgot about those little things when I talked about thinking he was scum.

Also I think that Lift and Stanari - If both town, well even if not both town, I think that Lift is experiencing culture playstyle clash with Stanari. This kind of thing happened at westeros some time before i joined. We're a really small community like here and many people started playing mafia there and learned to play according to their style. I've read some past games when new players who had experience elsewhere joined the site there was a bit of a backlash for players that weren't very forthcoming with explanations for votes and things like that. That reminds me I didn't really like his post when he got after Stanari for voting without giving a reason, but if that's this site's culture then eh I guess and I do know some people who flip out over that type of thing.

I kind of liked Nacho's last post.

I felt like I had something more, but I'm home sick for round two and I didn't get to reading back through stuff yesterday, but I will get through some of it today. I did read through Lift this morning, but I need to reread end of day yesterday and dessimu and RW.

I'm having a bit of a dilemma on Lift. There are a bunch of things he's doing that are objectively scummy but in some parts he just feels earnest. His overuse of roleplay yesterday was one. (Not that I mind roleplay I love it! It just felt like it was a crutch in part yesterday.) I didn't like him moving to babark, who he was townreading, because of his theory about the no hammer and several people talked to him about his hammer theory but he didn't seem to actually engage that. It could be as simple as nobody wanted to hammer without getting a claim from him and since a hammer doesn't end the day there's nothing to do but wait. And anyone hammering without a claim would look bad. I also didn't like him moving to yogsloth when yog was not getting lynched and passing over dessimu who could have gotten lynched yesterday. So he's objectively scummy and I wouldn't be surprised at all if he flipped scum, but there's a part of me that wonders if he's just a scummy townie.

There is this I found interesting though:

Lifthrasil: Well, actually I was Town quite often. Vanilla in Extraterrestrials, in The Gameshow, in Ordinary game and in Women's Institute, Doctor in Très Lèches and in Vitek's quick Rouge game, Town Distracted Tracker in Murder They Wrote, Lover in Christmas,
Apart from the ones you mentioned, I was Mafia in Russian Roulette - but that probably doesn't help since it was a very non-standard game.

Hope that helps.
RWarehall: Probably nothing but when I read this the first time, it struck me wrong. I get that it is talk of past games and, as such, may be nothing but also could be an accidental slip. Highlighted for posterity...
Now this, whether or not Lift is scum, is definitely not a slip. (I've had this kind of thing used against me once by a paranoid townie who thought when talking about past games I'd slipped but the paranoia there was palpable.) Here there's just a flat slip accusation. But why I point this out and why it caught my attention was because of the difference in how he attacked babark for docbear's "slip" and here where he's just kinda letting it lie. He pushed babark for possibly knowing the size of the scum team and wanted to see his reaction; here there's no prodding, no attempt to gauge a reaction to it.

The fact that he didn't push it has me concerned. And the highlighted for posterity bit looks like something he could point back to upon his scum flip and be like aha I knew it but didn't want to push it because it was dumb. Some early mild distancing?

He could have been just putting it out there subtly and hoping someone else would run with it to though. So no strong feeling either way but I found it interesting.
TammyTown: And I gotta say I'm a bit perplexed at your focus on why nobody hammered babark, someone you believe is town, and not the failed dessimu wagon, who we know was scum.
It IS a bit of a big deal. Assuming babark was town, that should have been an easy hammer right there for scum, assuming (again) that there was still a scum off the wagon to hammer.

That, and there is a TON of moment / vote jumping, with scum pushing their own wagon (in the case of Dessimu) but then also "balancing" it out by leaving when others move it. There's something there and I'm going to try and parse that out but there was an interesting fluctuation of votes between viable wagons (and it wasn't just freaking Bookwyrm hopping up all over the place like an ADD jumping bean cracked out on a double shot of espresso).
"while trying to reason with drealmer who was RPing homocidal mania as town"

good times!

*continues to catch up before switching stages*
drealmer7: was going to post the change of stages but I've got to go through and make sure bler isn't talking in code and that is going to take a while

9am wednesday, the time and day I said everyone had to have a contributory post by, is when I planned to switch the stages, fyi (I can't figure how that was hard to guess.)
All of his bolded statements were anagrams to vote lift. Also, if bler was speaking in code who would he be speaking to? If you just outed bler as scum that would be rather harsh.