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victorchopin: Personally, again, I'd be way happier with some cloud gaming solution.. like "here's witcher 3 you bought on gog. Can't run it? No worries, try our streaming and stuff, but the game's all yours". That would be awesome.
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SpikedWallMan: In my opinion, this would be worse than the Epic deal. Cloud gaming is the ultimate DRM.
Well it happened with Cyberpunk (the Geforce Now deal) and it was well received here. Not that impossible afterall heh
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Well, it is now comfortable to sit in a comfy chair and watch the burning house, alongside popcorn.

I was really surprised that Cyberpunk 2077 comes with its own launcher, looking a bit like the battle.net launcher. This begs the question why GOG Galaxy does not deliver enought for CDPR :-)

Just prepare for the worst, buy 2 huge USB drives (the second one for a mirror) and get your GOG library there.
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coffeecup: Well, it is now comfortable to sit in a comfy chair and watch the burning house, alongside popcorn.

I was really surprised that Cyberpunk 2077 comes with its own launcher, looking a bit like the battle.net launcher. This begs the question why GOG Galaxy does not deliver enought for CDPR :-)

Just prepare for the worst, buy 2 huge USB drives (the second one for a mirror) and get your GOG library there.
USB pendrives are TERRIBLE means of archiving stuff in the longterm...
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B1tF1ghter: USB pendrives are TERRIBLE means of archiving stuff in the longterm...
What is a good way to back up very large installer files then? (i.e. ones that won't fit on a DVD) I've been wondering about that ...
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B1tF1ghter: USB pendrives are TERRIBLE means of archiving stuff in the longterm...
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Time4Tea: What is a good way to back up very large installer files then? (i.e. ones that won't fit on a DVD) I've been wondering about that ...
just use hdd like nearly everybody
there is still magnetic tape which is good but those are for large corporations
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Time4Tea: What is a good way to back up very large installer files then? (i.e. ones that won't fit on a DVD) I've been wondering about that ...
There was a interesting thread about the subject, possibly made by the user nightcraw1er. I'll try to find it.

Edit: well, Gog search is awsome... Didn´t found the said thread but those are a good read:

https://www.gog.com/forum/general/storage_and_organisation_discussion/page1

https://www.gog.com/forum/general/gog_library_offline_backup
Post edited December 15, 2020 by Dark_art_
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B1tF1ghter: USB pendrives are TERRIBLE means of archiving stuff in the longterm...
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Time4Tea: What is a good way to back up very large installer files then? (i.e. ones that won't fit on a DVD) I've been wondering about that ...
You could always try M-Disc's. (M for Millennium, in how long they're supposed to last)
Up to 100GB discs available.
(Need a supported disc-player though)

https://www.mdisc.com/#

I've always wanted to try them myself, but I'm not sure they're even in my little country.
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B1tF1ghter: USB pendrives are TERRIBLE means of archiving stuff in the longterm...
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Time4Tea: What is a good way to back up(...)then?
TLDR: there really isn't any atm if all you want is "make and forget" (as in: create a cold storage type backup and throw it into the basement or whatever for 40 years untouched).
Current technology is crap and pretty much anything requires maintanance at least every few years (that is unless you have enough money to afford your own archiving datacenter which I am sure you don't).

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Time4Tea: ...
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Orkhepaj: just use hdd like nearly everybody
there is still magnetic tape which is good but those are for large corporations
Tape drives aren't JUST for enterprise market. They are INTENDED to be used there. But some individuals use them too.
Tapes themselves aren't THAT expensive. What is expensive is a drive for them most of the time (and I mean - you cannot buy just ANY - you have to squeeze some money to get a good one).
But there is quite A LOT of issues with tapes.
TLDR: If you want to even consider tapes then you have to make EXTENSIVE research in regards to if you would even BE ABLE to utilise them (things such as SPECIAL CARE STORAGE come into play).

Using just any HDD for a backup is a very sh*tty idea.
I could go into great lengths on explanations of that.
Drives fail. You can even be unfortunate enough to have your triple redundant backup to fail all at once.

I said some stuff in regards to backups in this thread
https://www.gog.com/forum/general/gog_library_offline_backup
tho when I read it now my language got broken here and there :P
Also, that was a very glorified TLDR, a tip of an iceberg if you will.
Data archiving is very complex case. I have a lot more to say on the matter. But I would have to fill up multiple pages of a thread to spit it out so I don't know how to handle that.

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Dark_art_: There was a interesting thread about the subject, possibly made by the user nightcraw1er. I'll try to find it.

Edit: well, Gog search is awsome... Didn´t found the said thread but those are a good read:
https://www.gog.com/forum/general/storage_and_organisation_discussion/page1
https://www.gog.com/forum/general/gog_library_offline_backup
I hv been in both (posted in one) and all I can say is that they are by all means incomplete and don't paint a good picture for not data-archivist kind of people (ergo for average person).

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Vendor-Lazarus: M-Disc
Normal discs (non archival grade - archival grade is a special type - they are far more expensive and generally hard to come by on general market) last anything between 5 - 20 years depending on quality and storage considerations.
The M-disc was specificly designed for exceptionally long storage. They are specsheeted for 1k years longetivity based on synthetic testing (before someone makes a fuss: humanity makes almost no "1:1 time passed" tests these days, synthetic tests are a thing for a long time, they are designed to simulate longer periods of time).
They can survive harsh conditions for longer.
They generally are a good thing but there are some caveats:
- first of all company originally responsible for them basically bancrupted - that led to technology being ALMOST abandoned
- due to above there is close to no companys manufacturing those now, mostly Verbatim, I think also Milleniata and some other name I don't remember
- even when this didn't look like that they were already pretty expensive - and now it's even worse. DVD M-disc is COMPLETELY not cost effective. BD 100 is absurd price
- availability NOW is a PROBLEM
It's a good storage media. But unless something changes that technology may become abandoned due to not big enough adoption (which was because of formats competition and some industry slack).

(to all people I quoted here):
I can TLDR this (I could write multiple essays on this case):
- don't use pendrives - they don't last and are completely worthless, used controllers are complete sh*t in 99% cases (they fail randomly), they have also no shielding (prone to bit flips, degausing and demagnetisation), also ridiculously overpriced
- SSDs - more immune to G shocks than HDD (but only in specific ways, ironically) - a burden unless you connect them to power every so often (I would suggest not risking it and not waiting more than 10 months) due to demagnetisation (industry tends to be silent about this major problem), expensive (still too expensive), no shielding in 99% models (prone to bit flips)
- HDDs - physically fragile (platters can get stuck, scratch, also heat prone), prone to degausing (after all it's one of THE methods for secure data wiping specificly HDDs), if not connected to power for long read/write heads can get physically stuck on powerup (don't think you can just toss a HDD into the closet for years and it will be just fine, it may be, but it may very well NOT BE), heavy, CHEAP, can corrode, problems with spare parts if it fails for example 15 years later, generally don't live above 10 years (they can but it's a very heavy risk, generally should be replaced at max every 8 years, ergo recurring cost)
- holographic discs ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_Versatile_Disc ) - a technology that never got addopted
- CD - not even remotely suitable for data archiving, and before someone goes "but my audio CDs last over a decade" - it's a FACT that blank discs are of COMPLETELY different grade and quality than what is used for pressing CD albums. Contains organic layer (ergo: trash in less than 15 years in case of recordable discs).
- DVD - low density (ergo LOTS of DVDs used for even small backup), low cost (but still too high), low quality, better than CD but still organic layer (ergo doesn't really last long), TLDR - don't use unless you can get archival (literal gold reflective layer) or "close to archival" (Verbatim AZO *or better*) grade
- tapes - hard to obtain, expensive drives, prone to humidity, heat, physical damage, cumbersome on filesystem level unless you use *NIX with special tooling, unknown maintanance required
- BD LTH - TRASH. Period.
- BD HTL "random manufacteur" - lottery, not very high quality, needs replacing max every 15 years (median hard to calculate, probably around 6-9 years to be safe), cost is random, more durable physically than DVD
- BD HTL "normal" quality (chinese Verbatim, other chinsese manufacteured, lower quality taiwaneese, etc) - average quality, cost is a lottery, needs replacing max every 15 years (a guess), more durable physically than DVD
- BD archival grade - rip wallet, good quality, hard to come by, may require VERY expensive archival grade drive to burn, unknown amount of storage time and maintanance
- BD 1 TiB prototype - "density effective", still in prototyping stage, this is if you want to rip your wallet some more :P

The best would be some sort of 3 dimensional data media that is non magnetic and non organic. That would last even few k years if properly made.
Some attempts at that are being made https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3D_optical_data_storage .
Most notably
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5D_optical_data_storage ( more of a "meh" for me personally, this would be ridiculously expensive considering who is involved )
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5D_DVD ( seems like a promising standard, but will take years to show up ).

Right now for average person the best idea may be to try to get:
[*] BD HTL specificly JAPANESE MADE - very high quality, cost is in check (at least for 25 GiB media), would probably last for 20 years or more, problems: exceedingly hard to get (some companies making them shifted production to offshore thus lowered quality drastically, others are for JP market only and there are issues exporting them). Examples: *some* Verbatim models, *some* Mitsubishi models (JP market only), Taiyo Yuden JP made batches, JP made Sharp batches, some others.
If you want them you have to really crawl forums for specific disc IDs and VERIFY THE BATCHES for authenticity (you need to read discs debug data to uncover real manufactuer AND model - it's a norm that A.There are fakes around B.Various models are sold under same packaging with no visual difference even on disc itself - remember, ONLY debug data can tell you REAL info).
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coffeecup: Just prepare for the worst, buy 2 huge USB drives (the second one for a mirror) and get your GOG library there.
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B1tF1ghter: USB pendrives are TERRIBLE means of archiving stuff in the longterm...
My "pen drive" is 10 TB big and you are foolish if you are using flash drives for archival storage. They are not only more expensive for the TB, but if they do not get their regular electric charge, they will lose their contents.

Just do backup for your stuff and store at least one duplicate safely packaged away, and you are set.

Personally, I should restart doing the important private data putting on quality DVDs, I have some which are about 20 years old and are still bona fide readable. But currently, I'm looking into obtaining a good BD writer (not for games, but personal data) and you have written a good breakdown for the currently available media.
Post edited December 16, 2020 by coffeecup
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coffeecup: ...
ALWAYS verify your backups.
I have seen in person people who recorded their optical media backups right in front of me, they did not verify them, and few months later it turned out they were unreadable garbage (and that was on TDK of all things).
ALWAYS calculate checksums on ORIGINAL data. Keep them safe (checksums). Preferably add checksum files to backup optical disc. Also keep them eslewhere (say for example password manager, or xls file in cloud).
Then each time you backup related data read from the backed up version and compare checksums.

Even the best backup is USELESS if you don't have 100% certainty the data is unchanged from the original.

Prepare yourself to squeeze your finances like a lemon.
Data archiving done PROPERLY costs MONEY, mountains of it.

I'm not expecting you to buy yourself archival grade optical burner (easily within few k euro).
But don't cheap out - DON'T EVEN BOTHER with "typical grade" burners - you can throw Asus, LG and the likes out of the window immeidatelly *.
Get yourself Pioneer (maybe also *some* Plextor and BenQ models). What model? Really depends on your needs. The higher end the better (generally, but also don't expect this to be "universal" drive, drives meant for archiving often for example don't READ UHD, etc).
Generally expect to spend no less than 150 euro on burner alone.
As for system compatibility - Linux works with basically everything, Windows is a lottery so do your research if you want to archive through Windows.

* Well, when I was buying my first BD burner like 2 years ago I wasn't as knowledgable as now and I bought ASUS (partially due to time constraints, I definitely didn't do my research then, and now I know uncomparably more on the matter) and thus I limited my ability to record media **.

** It's literally that certain specific models of high end discs cannot be recorded on lesser quality burners.
Pioneer generally records everything or close to everything (that can be obtained on free market, as for LITERAL "archival grade" it depends, check specsheets when in doubt).

Also:
disc brand means close to NOTHING in 99% cases. You need to dig info on specific disc models (manufacteur ID from disc debug data, plus bunch of other things).

(drive) You need to decide the right compromise between data recording quality and matters such as BD film ripping according to your own needs.
Because the 2 don't neccesarily go in par.
TLDR: It can be a problem to handle SOME BD film releases on very high end drives MEANT for archiving data but at the same time they would read the disc more "properly".
It may be a real pain to decide, but don't rush it or you will later regret it.

I'm writing this when tired AF so in terms of specific disc IDs - maybe some other time shall we? - and I really don't know when, I could name only very few just like that so I would have to refresh my research in regards to those.

I just want to point this out - we should really create a dedicated thread SPECIFICLY for optical media (afaik there isn't any on GOG) - as otherwise we could go on for multiple pages about this (very is REALLY MUCH to say), I could make one maybe in a week (I am busy indefinitely). Just saying.
TLDR for disc IDs: generally you are safe to get whatever is MANUFACTURED (not ORIGINATING, marketed for, labeled as, etc) in JAPANESE pressing factories (tho there is quality variance, AND whole product lines for specific use cases - such as TV broadcasting and others, so DO YOUR RESEARCH).
I could really say A LOT about proper backups. But sadly I would get crucified by mods for offtopic. So you can safely assume I will errect dedicated thread somewhere down the line probably within a month.

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coffeecup: ...
You know what?
It only NOW got to me that you said USB drives. And when originally reading it I immediatelly drew connection USB = pendrive.
So I guess you meant USB hard drives?
Because I would not use specificly USB denominator if I were you - it's too confusing - just say external drives next time.
Post edited December 17, 2020 by B1tF1ghter