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amok: A story is what it is about, plot is the timeline in which it takes place, the order of the events. So they are seperate
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LootHunter: How can they be separate if the plot is literally the timeline of the story events? It's like saying that form of the cup is not a part of the cup's design.
you choped out "but interconnected" there... and you are getting into the form and content discussion. the most used example here is that you can have a jug of water. The water is the content (the story). Water is water. However, you can have many different jugs, which is the form (the plot). So yes, you can have many different jugs of water, but between then the water is the same. So you separet them into water and jugs, and you can look at both seperaty. but to have a jug of water you need the interconnection of both. So the answer here is yes and no. They are seperate, but interconnected in ways that you can not seperate them witthout destroying the meaning.

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amok: Ludo-narrative dissonance is when the story and the gamplay are 'telling' different and oppositional things.
If the player can play the game and ignore the story, then there is no dissonance, the story just dont matter.
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LootHunter: Actually, there is dissonance. Just, as you've said, player can play the game and ignore the story, thus ignoring the dissonance.
This needs some more distinct nuanses. Dissonance is a very specific term, which broadly speaking measn out of harmoy, contradictory or lack of agreement. So when you just say "ignore" this is way to broad to talk about dissonacne. Yes, when you have ludo-narrative dissonance it does mean that if a player want to continue playing the game they need to reject either the story or the gampleay. You can not ignore the gameplay and continue the game, therefore the playe need to reject the story. (rejecting the gameplay means playing a different game) So there is a very clear process here.

However, this does not happen in all cases where a player ignores the story, only those where the story and the game play mechanics are conflict with each other. There may be numerous other reason why a player ignores the story (not interested, boring story, just want to play etc), which has nothing to do with ludo-narrative dissonace, which is very specific term.

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amok: For example if you are playing as a female archiologist, but all you do is killing endangerd animals, break old vases and destroy old ruins. There is a dissonance between the story and the actions of the game. Or if you are a goody-two-shoes characer out to save the world, but all you do is shoot people in the face.
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LootHunter: These examples have nothing to do with ludo-narrative dissonance. There are movies with those exact narratives without any "ludo" part to dissonance with.
the dissonace here is that an areologist will do what they can to preserve old things, not tear them down and shoot them with guns. A goody-two-shoes character will care about people, try to protect them and solve problems non-violently, not kill them by the thousands without blinking. It all comes down to how the characters are presented and 'told', and what they do in the game. In those movies, the characters usually have backstories that explains the actions, and - more importantly - you are then just taken on for the ride, not expected to controll and act out their actions.
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amok: Ludo-narrative dissonance is when the story and the gamplay are 'telling' different and oppositional things.
If the player can play the game and ignore the story, then there is no dissonance, the story just dont matter.
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LootHunter: Actually, there is dissonance. Just, as you've said, player can play the game and ignore the story, thus ignoring the dissonance.
dissonance vs non-assonance. There's a difference. Gameplay/story being *adversarial* is a different beast than them being *separate*.
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Leroux: He also writes, under his own game's screenshot: "We sell words. We’re in the word-selling business." That somewhat reminds me of the devs who advertise that they have a gazillion words in their game, which frankly I find off-putting (and I'm saying that as someone who likes stories). IMO, a lot of games put too much store in word count, and their storytelling could be better if they used a lot less of them.
Not only devs though, especially among cRPG gamers a lot seems to have real hard-on for that kind of thing and love to dismiss anyone saying they don't like walls of text as illiterate morons. Personally I prefer reading books instead of doubtful quality scribbles of some wannabe Tolkiens like it most often is in case of games (Pillars of Eternity was especially bad case) but to each their own. What's really irritating is this elitist approach of such people like it'd be some achievement or something to be proud.
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fronzelneekburm: Credit where credit is due: In one of the captions, the guy shits on the insanely overrated Spec Ops The Line for all the right reasons.
I posted only to strongly agree with this.
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fronzelneekburm: Credit where credit is due: In one of the captions, the guy shits on the insanely overrated Spec Ops The Line for all the right reasons.
Ok, true enough, I'll give him that :D
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what games did he make?
low rated
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amok: here is that you can have a jug of water. The water is the content (the story). Water is water. However, you can have many different jugs, which is the form (the plot).
No. That's wrong analogy. Water and a jug are totally separate entities. You literally can't have a story without a plot (the sequence of events).
Here is the video that explains it:
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amok: This needs some more distinct nuanses. Dissonance is a very specific term, which broadly speaking measn out of harmoy, contradictory or lack of agreement. So when you just say "ignore" this is way to broad to talk about dissonacne. Yes, when you have ludo-narrative dissonance it does mean that if a player want to continue playing the game they need to reject either the story or the gampleay. You can not ignore the gameplay and continue the game, therefore the playe need to reject the story. (rejecting the gameplay means playing a different game) So there is a very clear process here.

However, this does not happen in all cases where a player ignores the story, only those where the story and the game play mechanics are conflict with each other. There may be numerous other reason why a player ignores the story (not interested, boring story, just want to play etc), which has nothing to do with ludo-narrative dissonace, which is very specific term.
Ok, if you consider "ludo-narrative dissonance" to be that specific, then maybe separation of gameplay and the story should have a different term. But still, if the story has nothing to do with gameplay, like in all match-3 asset-swaps, that's not a compliment for the design of your game.

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LootHunter: These examples have nothing to do with ludo-narrative dissonance. There are movies with those exact narratives without any "ludo" part to dissonance with.
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amok: the dissonace here is that an areologist will do what they can to preserve old things, not tear them down and shoot them with guns. A goody-two-shoes character will care about people, try to protect them and solve problems non-violently, not kill them by the thousands without blinking. It all comes down to how the characters are presented and 'told', and what they do in the game. In those movies, the characters usually have backstories that explains the actions, and - more importantly - you are then just taken on for the ride, not expected to controll and act out their actions.
Again. The dissonance you speak about has nothing to do with "ludo-narrative". Exactly because, as you've said, one can just relax and go along for the ride with Indiana Jones or James Bond, without thinking too much about moral implications.
Post edited October 16, 2021 by LootHunter
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fronzelneekburm: Credit where credit is due: In one of the captions, the guy shits on the insanely overrated Spec Ops The Line for all the right reasons.
I agree that it's overrated, but I'm not sure he lists the right reasons. Are people really talking about its "clever writing tricks" or rather about its defiant approach to deal with the clichéd genre? I thought the way they did it was pretty heavy-handed, not at all subtle or "clever", but they did something noone had done before yet. And the standard gameplay was part of their approach, I think. From all I know they were commissioned to do just that, another typical Spec Ops game.
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Breja: "If you are in the mood for good storytelling, you can watch a movie. Or a TV show. Or (shudder) read a book. Each of these is a thousand miles beyond the best video game in terms of storytelling."
(I know you have quoted that from his blog). The same can be said regarding game mechanics. If you are in the mood for good mechanics, you can play Chess, Sudoku or play tabletop rpgs (since, in my own experience, players tend to argue more about rules and mechanics than focusing on stories). A video game should be like a love triangle between visuals, stories and mechanics.
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Still no Linux support.

How much do we have to raise for him to (give someone the permission to) port something?
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fronzelneekburm: Credit where credit is due: In one of the captions, the guy shits on the insanely overrated Spec Ops The Line for all the right reasons.

Didn't care enough to read the rest of this article.
I don't think he shits on a game in a way you seem to think he is... quote "(Spec Ops: The Line) Utterly standard gameplay. A cop-out trick ending. But people still talk about this game because of its clever writing tricks."

In the context of his blogpost it would suggest Vogel's opinion is that "Spec Ops" is memorable in spite of gameplay/ending flaws, thanks to "clever writing tricks".
If I remember correctly, Spec Ops wasn't totally overrated, most gaming outlets gave it something around 7/10, complaining about poor shooting, dumb AI, short campaign, bad multiplayer etc...
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osm: Still no Linux support.

How much do we have to raise for him to (give someone the permission to) port something?
A fair amount. He runs Spiderweb basically by himself with his wife. He even points this out on his various reddit AMAs.
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Orkhepaj: what games did he make?
Ah, that is who he is.

He did Avernum, which I think was once called Exile (I remember playing exile a long time ago and having to send away to get a key, then having an issue, and not being able to finish :P)

Geneforge

Avadon

Nethergate

I have played the Geneforge games and they were interesting, but honestly, not all that memorable to me at least. (someone mentioned Pillars of Eternity, and I am pretty sure I can remember a character from that series, but not from the geneforge one. I say pretty sure, because apparently I get PoE mixed up with Divinity: Original Sin "P)

I started playing Avernum, but sort of lost interest (will pick it up again later, probably)

I also played Avadon, which was fun, but not truly anything I would personally write home about.

So, honestly, I wouldn't say his particular formulae work for him :P I personally got the games because of nostalgia (see the playing exile a long time ago). I had went looking for it, and found the website, and was thinking about figuring out if they were free now, then found them on GoG on sale, so bought them. Had nothing to do with gameplay or storyline... just nostalgia...
But why would I play a game with a good story if the combat is boring, if I instead can read a book with a better story or play a game with better combat?
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It's funny because Spiderweb games have never been known as having good writing.