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Carradice: @Micro’s post #309, the math for the second option (no Votus) does not add up

>>IF we lose two players a day without getting scum, we go from 14 (D1)-12 (d2)-10(d3)-8(d4)-6(d5) at which point, with three scum, we have lost. If we have a neutral player or a SK, we have lost sooner if we fail to hit scum. Even if we get 2 baddies on the first night (like my last game) we can still lose (Pooka pocketed me into oblivion that game).
If we don't vote, we are 14D1, 13D2, 11D3, 9D4, 7D5, which--if we have yet to hit scum--leaves us at 4-3 and MYLO/LYLO (i forget which atm and can't be bothered to check). `

Why the change of step from 1 to 2 in D3? Decidedly a non-Euclidian geometry here, or trying to prod people to lynch with so much enthusiasm that he got carried away out of enthusiasm.

Nothing especially significant, only that something like this should not be let it slip unnoticed.
Microfish_1: quickly, the reason for the change in players each day is this.

d1 town does nothing=14 players. n1 scum lunches someone=13 players @start of d2
d2 town lunches = 12 players. n2 scum lunches=11 players start of d3
d3 town lunches = 10 players left. n3 scum lunches. 9 players alive at start of d4
and so on

the math adds up perfectly. the only way it wouldn't happen if we no lunched is if the scum decided to not NK in order to sow more confusion.
OK. Good enough. Thought that you were meaning a protracted no-lunch stage while evaluating.

About @ZFR, 100% with you, he posts rarely and mostly about game mechanics. Hum.

@Caesar, agreed that Agent, or any other, should have the chance to defend himself, including claiming and whatnot, before emitting the sentencing vote.

Again, if someone might summarize the case against @Agent, besides these jokes, please share. Are we punishing him for his sense of humour, or on the grounds of upkeeping policy, or for something about PMs?
agentcarr16: @Everyone - Real talk. I apologize if I'm ruining the game for you. I don't have the time to write walls-of-text or ISO every single player. I barely have time to read everything thoroughly. I get my kicks by acting erratically and watching people drive themselves crazy over it

I have not claimed my real character yet. I will not claim my real character unless I reach L-1.
Alright good.

unvotus AgentCarr

agentcarr16: @Everyone - Real talk. I apologize if I'm ruining the game for you. I don't have the time to write walls-of-text or ISO every single player. I barely have time to read everything thoroughly. I get my kicks by acting erratically and watching people drive themselves crazy over it

I have not claimed my real character yet. I will not claim my real character unless I reach L-1.
If you don't have the time to play the game and actually contribute to your team, whichever that may be, then why play at all? Just trolling is not a nice move and makes the game more difficult for everybody else.

@all: at this point I would ask all of you to either lynch agent or me. We're the leading wagons anyhow and it would be good if one of us were removed from the game. Agent's behaviour is really anti-town (and anti-game). Yes, my tenacity with LAL and maybe tunneling on agent and the PM stuff was probably disruptive too. I reacted badly to agent's 'jokes'. You can decide yourself which is worse. Trolling or getting worked up about it.
Votus Conputatio

agent 3 - RWarehall, Lift, SirPrimalform
Lift 3 - Pooka, agent, ConsulCaesar
Microfish 2 - trent, yogsloth
yogs 1 - FlockeShnee
trent 1 - Joe

No-lynch 1 - GameRager

Everyone else - 0
Not voting - Micro

14 players remaining - it takes 8 to lynch.

When you see a vote count, please let me know if your name is against the wrong person.
Back, sooner than expected!

Carradice: Again, if someone might summarize the case against @Agent, besides these jokes, please share. Are we punishing him for his sense of humour, or on the grounds of upkeeping policy, or for something about PMs?
For me it's a little of everything.

The original joke was harmless enough to me, even the House Wampus thing read as a joke to me. Both of these made me sit up and take notice but were plausibly jokes and not really scummy by themselves.

The PM stuff was all pretty terrible, but I felt like Agent's arguments were worse and he was trying hard to find an excuse to discredit Lift. Hardly anyone was really following Lift's LAL policy at that point so it's a bit strange that Agent felt threatened enough to try and paint Lift as scummy. I interpret this as a guilty conscience overreaction. Town!Agent wouldn't take Lift seriously as he'd have nothing to hide. Scum!Agent is more likely to feel the pressure.
Gut feeling at this point that Agent is hiding something and panicking somewhat.

Now. Now we get to the Viktor Krum claim. At this point it's not a joke any more, it comes across as an attempt to muddy the waters. To me it's blatantly anti-town regardless of intent.

I see a few other people have taken their votes off so I'm comfortable leaving mine on at this point.

agentcarr16: @Everyone - Real talk. I apologize if I'm ruining the game for you. I don't have the time to write walls-of-text or ISO every single player. I barely have time to read everything thoroughly. I get my kicks by acting erratically and watching people drive themselves crazy over it

I have not claimed my real character yet. I will not claim my real character unless I reach L-1.
JoeSapphire: Alright good.

unvotus AgentCarr

Do you read Lift vs Agent as town on town then? Or are you just backing off for now?
I find it a bit weird that it only takes an AtE to shed scum points in your eyes.

Lifthrasil: @all: at this point I would ask all of you to either lynch agent or me. We're the leading wagons anyhow and it would be good if one of us were removed from the game. Agent's behaviour is really anti-town (and anti-game). Yes, my tenacity with LAL and maybe tunneling on agent and the PM stuff was probably disruptive too. I reacted badly to agent's 'jokes'. You can decide yourself which is worse. Trolling or getting worked up about it.
FWIW, I found your tunelling misguided. I didn't think your reason for suspecting Agent at that point was solid enough. But his actions since have given me a stomach ache that I can't ignore. So I guess I'm saying that your tunelling may have rattled Agent enough to behave in an actual scummy manner and so might have served a purpose?
ConsulCaesar: Just to take a stance, as everybody else has:

Votus Lifthrasil

Unless we decide that we want to hear agent's "serious" claim and we agree to get him to L-1 without lynching him prematurely.
Tell me, what is so towny about agent in your way, that you are willing to accept his repeated 'joke' false claims and you're not even sure you want to hear his serious claim? And are worried that he might get lynched?

Or is he just your scumbuddy and that determines which side you choose in this conflict?
ConsulCaesar: Just to take a stance, as everybody else has:

Votus Lifthrasil

Unless we decide that we want to hear agent's "serious" claim and we agree to get him to L-1 without lynching him prematurely.
Lifthrasil: Tell me, what is so towny about agent in your way, that you are willing to accept his repeated 'joke' false claims and you're not even sure you want to hear his serious claim? And are worried that he might get lynched?

Or is he just your scumbuddy and that determines which side you choose in this conflict?
I have already said, more than once, that he would be my second target after you. I don't see both of you being town. I chose you as scummier because your push for him at the very beginning felt over the top for a silly joke. He has since taken actions that made him suspicious, but in my opinion you pushed too much when all the affair was at anecdote-level.

I'd like to hear agent's claim, but I don't want to put him in L-1 and let someone else hammer him unless we reach a consensus first.
Lifthrasil: @all: at this point I would ask all of you to either lynch agent or me.
I wasn't sure what to think of Agent for a while, on the one hand his first few claims were blatant jokes. On the other hand he didn't feel like outright scummy to me, but then again I am still learning to gauge his playstyle. Maybe he was scummy after all.
All of that is moot tho. As I said above, if townies are a liability we lynch them too. The only downside is that in these cases we won't learn much from analyzing the wagon since even confirmed town players would gladly remove more distracting townies so that the game can proceed.

Since Lift recommends one of them gets lynched today I don't think there's much to discuss, Lift looked Town-er to me and he has been trying to solve the game. At least apparently. Agent may have the intention to make the game a bit funnier (and he even succeeded), but he isn't adding much to any actual scumhunt.

I still don't feel like Caesar did anything to diminish my worries about him, but if we'll have to lynch Agent D1 I will sadly join.
Are we playing again?

Just to throw in another analogy-

If your buddies invited you over to play Monopoly, would you sit down at the table and decide not to buy any properties because you might get the ones you don't want, and just go round and round and collect your \$200?

If your buddies invited you over to play poker, would you sit down at the table and decide to fold every single hand and never bet regardless of what's in your hand because you might lose?

No, you wouldn't.

Because:

a) You can't win that way
b) While not technically against the rules, at a fundamental level, that's just not how those games are played, and
c) It wouldn't be any fun

So

If your buddies invited you over to play Mafia, would you sit down at the table and decide to not vote and not lynch anybody because you might get it wrong?
OK, so, agent-

Agent

Agent brah

What the hell are you doing?

My first reaction to seeing the Slytherin claim was to laugh out loud and think “I’ve got to get in on this action”

But at this point you’re a hot mess, all over the place, kicking the bear. The fake claims stopped being funny after the first one, and at this point I can only speculate that if you’re Town, you’re just… sorting reactions?
ConsulCaesar: I have already said, more than once, that he would be my second target after you. I don't see both of you being town. I chose you as scummier because your push for him at the very beginning felt over the top for a silly joke. He has since taken actions that made him suspicious, but in my opinion you pushed too much when all the affair was at anecdote-level.

I'd like to hear agent's claim, but I don't want to put him in L-1 and let someone else hammer him unless we reach a consensus first.
So Caesar wants to lynch agent, and if agent flips Town, he'll lynch Lift

This feels an awful lot like ye olde classical "string together mis-lynches" tactic

I've employed it myself as scum many times

.............

Nobody cares about microfish so openly role-fishing, huh

.............

I think agent vs Lift is town-on-town, I really do, maybe I'm fooled and agent's assholerly is some sort of fifth-level scum braining, but I really don't think so.... and I swear this is Town Lift.... are these really the only viable D1 lynch options at this point?

.............

conundrums
Let's do this

Unvotus microfish

Votus Caeser
Just for clarification:
1 I still didn't have the time to really check from post 151 onwards, I only skimmed. I have no idea why I get replies about PMs, I never mentioned any and I never will, because they don't matter, I mentioned posts, puclicly posted in this thread, because those _do_ matter.
I will probably be absent until Friday latish evening and will do my best to properly catch up to everything then. Vote stays where it is. I will see about what to do or not do on friday.

2 From what I understand about Mafia from the wiki:
1) Dayphase: Mafia tries to blend in; Nightphase: Mafia talks and decides what to do. (I read that as they aren't allowed to chat (outside of the game thread itself) during day, because they are supposed to be busy blending in.)
2) Town doesn't know who is in the same boat with them or not.

------------------
This is the most simple way I can put it, otherwise there is nothing I can do.

Short version of my post 269:
1 yogsloth mentions to be tied leadwagon and I see I see I see. -> trentonlf unvotes yogsloth (posts 54+56)
3 yogsloth mentions hating lying and Wokka wokka wokka! right after the post from SPF that trentonlf will later state as his reason to vote SPF -> trentonlf votes SirPrimalform
Translation = yogsloth and trentonlf are secretly conversion with each other = yogsloth and trentonlf _know_ they are in the same boat. = _Town_ can't know that. = They are _not_ town. = Everyone _not_ town is a _threat to town_.

yogsloth weird way of communication also has the potential to include SirPrimalform:
1 yogsloth and have a discussion that yogsloth ends in post 41 with something I have no idea what you meant with that, but in a ways that read like "officially ending the contact with you here" to which SPF replies in post 43 with one more try to make it more clear -> yogsloth I see I see I see. which could translate as Oh, got it now.
2 SPF making a _bolded_ post in gibberish/latin? involving agentcarr -> yogsloth: Nope, Agent is town. Good good good. -> SPF unvotes agentcarr (posts 78+79+80)

--------------------------
What else I noticed:
1 GameRager posts a lot of things and then all he does is bump the thread without any further comment, not even a joke about that "over complicated mess" I posted, completely ignored the whole thing. That's quite unlike him, judging from what I have seem about him on the forums so far.
2 RWarehall felt the unquelchable need to make clear that what he thought was impossble happened: "Something I frankly thought was impossible, but I'm nearly 100% certain GameRager is not Scum this game." (post 107)
Special Note: RWarehall was yogsloth prime target at the beginning. Distancing?

yogsloth and trentonlf = _not_ Town, so either mafia or some "special case" (whatever other kind would know for sure who is in the same boat as them right from the start)
SirPrimalform = suspicious, definitely worth keeping an eye on
GameRage and RWarehall = maybe Mafia

--------------------

(Unrelated personal musing: Connecting dots is much easier, if you know how many dots there are and easier still, if you know how many of those are multiconnecting or not.)
Hey I have a quick message for trent, could everyone else please look away for a minute, please?

ets-lay ightkill-nay ockshcnee-flay onight-tay

shhh

OK everybody else can look now

.......

trent, I think they're onto us,
Lifthrasil: Tell me, what is so towny about agent in your way, that you are willing to accept his repeated 'joke' false claims and you're not even sure you want to hear his serious claim? And are worried that he might get lynched?

Or is he just your scumbuddy and that determines which side you choose in this conflict?
yogsloth: ]
So Caesar wants to lynch agent, and if agent flips Town, he'll lynch Lift

This feels an awful lot like ye olde classical "string together mis-lynches" tactic

I've employed it myself as scum many times
I voted for Lift, not agent.

According to Lift I don't suspect agent enough, and according to yog I want to lych him... When I said I'd like his claim or him being investigated/roleblocked.