Vote Count

nmillar 4 - trent, Lift, blotunga, GH
Joe 2 - gogtrial, Micro
Micro 1 - Joe
gogtrial 1 - phaolo
phaolo 1 - Vitek
Lift 1 - dedo

Not voting - catte, nmillar

nmillar is closest at L-3

12 players in game. Takes 7 to lynch.

Whenever you see a vote count from me, please make sure your name is against the correct person. Let me know if there are any mistakes.

I've been mulling this over for a bit. Hoping for a Joe appearance. You certainly put up a good defense. But the thing is: You're now explaining why I didn't act like scum!gogtrial. Yet you read me as town!gogtrial. And there's a vast gulf between those two.

I could see you reading me as null based on observed behaviour, and maybe even arguing against people reading me as scum. But at the point where you were town-reading me, I had displayed very little of the behaviour you associate with town-me.

I think you were too busy playing Wasteland 3, saw discussion surrounding me, *know* that I am town, just assumed that I'd be exhibiting my usual super-townie self behaviour, and supported that in an effort to score some town points yourself.
Then, instead of admitting a mistake, you doubled down.
I think you slipped.

votus trent

For reference to people who haven't followed the argument, this was trent town-reading me:
And this was his second attempt at explaining why (first was #97)

And you've fallen straight into my cunning trap! As dedoporno correctly points out just a few posts above, offering the scum a free mis-lynch is poor town play, so the fact that you're okay with that gives you some scum points.

I'll try and post something more constructive later today with a read (with my own reasons) for every player. I'm at work at the moment, so will depend on how busy the day is.

Any chance you could manage that re-read before EoD? You're currently giving scum!you a lot of leeway by not taking any stances, or providing a lot of cover to scum by not making them stand out for doing the same.

If you're town and yet resigned to not living beyond the day, could you at least try and provide some valuable and guaranteed-town insights into the various player-interactions which have been happening? Gut feelings will do as far as I'm concerned - just something solid that I can look back on when I get too paranoid in my hypothetical scenario's? (Ah, I see a promise to provide this in #275; thanks!)

Of course, if you're scum, please continue as you are.

A response to my questions from #241 would also still be welcome.

How come Joe is lumped in with "everyone else" here, given the earlier part of what I quoted?

I had a question for you in #257.

Sorry, was waiting for Joe to show up before laying my cards on the table, as I didn't want to remove the pressure from him. Given up on that now.
I'm very much in favour of everyone committing to what they think (see my questions directed to all and sundry), to leave less wiggle room for scum as the game progresses, but reads lists have the problem of more explicitly pointing out good NK targets for scum (i.e. those widely seen as town, and thus hard to mislynch). Looking at your format again, however, you're not listing who's town and why, but only what's suspicious about each player. That might dillute this effect enough to be a good approach.

1. JoeSapphire - (meta) Not his usual town-self. Could be RL already interfering at that point, but the counter-question "What would you want me to think?" (#69) was totally off.
2. catte - D1 low effort is (meta) NAI for him, but I still don't like it. Has actually been more involved in the game than other D1 memories I have of his town-self, but with very narrow focus.
3. Lifthrasil - "Aggressive" shading. (See response to dedo halfway through my #163 wall for examples. Interestingly no one responded to that specifically, other than micro.)
4. trentonlf - Unwarranted town-read of me. (See #274 just above.)
5. GymHenson - (meta) Different play from his usual self; could be NAI due to evolving, but I'm not convinced. The way he hopped on nmillar's wagon didn't feel right.
6. phaolo - Not quite the werd mix of clueless play I've come to associate with newbie players.
7. nmillar - Very low effort, particularly his "for the same reasons as other players" (#235). "It was a clever trap" also doesn't convince, as it's a cliché scum tactic.
8. Microfish_1 - (meta) Less deferential, forgetting / not noticing a whole bunch of things. (Bad math) Surely this time he'll have rolled scum?
9¾. dedoporno - Didn't follow up on the trent line of reasoning, after seemingly leading me by the hand to noticing the discrepancy. Now has trent as neutral?? Doesn't make sense to me, so I'm trying out narratives like he was trying to get me lynched and abandoned that when he saw it going nowhere?
10. gogtrial34987 - Not yet universally town-read. :P
11. Vitek - Not following up on strong reads with real votes. Joining dedo on questioning Lift?
12. blotunga - Low effort, repeatedly not answering questions.


My preferred lunches for today are:
1. Trent
2. Joe
3. Lift

nmillar, microfish and blotunga to prevent nolunch.

Is this satire or are you being serious?


He shouldn't be. I changed the formatting of the "list" I was doing on the go and forgot to place him in the proper spot at #2. If I wasn't as focused on Lift as I am Joe would have been my top pick. Lift and Joe are the players I'd comfortably vote on my own volition at the moment and the rest (excluding phaolo and myself) are wagons I'll take part in, if needed to secure the lynch.

I've never had Trent anything different than neutral in this particular game so I'm not sure what this "amazement" is supposed to point at.

I'm confused by this. Are you saying I was trying to get you lynched or you're looking at a scenario where Trent was trying to get you lynched and I was some how backing him up on it?

Entirely satirical.

You can't use such fancy words on me, I have to google them and we all know you are doing it to humiliate me.
So you think he is not polite enough as he used to be?
I don't know if it the main trait one needs in mafia. :-)

Although I fully admit the Micro's statement about your lynch was very strange (and that by itself is often enough on D1) and it deserves scrutiny but I can't really say I see what you see i nhim being substantially different.
Are you sure it's not just OMGUS?
I should also say that in #67 I had not to read Micro's posts critically as I knew he is talking honestly no matter what he was posting so I may be off but so far I don't see much difference in his overall play.


This still doesn't anwer gogtrial's question where are the similarities between his play here and in what you see as his usual town play and it doesn't anwer mine about on what do you base his usual scum play?

What did you find weird about it?

I listed my suspects few posts back, I think it is sufficient.
You can add to it that I rate dedo quite towny so far, for his line of thinking. Lift won't hold it against me I bet, but who cares.
Rest is in various shades of grey.

Don't worry, I will when I feel like it.

I was waiting for more input from all my top suspects before deciding to see where would be best to put it (on any of them or elsewhere) and so far it's still not clear.


So you are basically OMGUSing us both.

Hm, this is true.
Props for that, GH. Then I don't know if I ever played with GH/GR as scum and if being more careful isn't more in line with his scum play.
Do you know his scum play? You say later you are less willing ot vote him than anyone else bar phaolo, so did this specifically made you town-read him? Ort is it "I won't lynch you to reward you for improved play no matter you alignment"?

I have always trouble with LIft's play because he plays way too aggressive for my liking not matter what team he plays on so for me his aggressivity is NAI for me but his question to dedo was out of nowhere and accusatory and the way he denied it instead of explaining is worse than the initial question.

I've clearly stated that no matter what anyone says gogtrial was what I consider mafia with Joe when Joe was a traitor on my team.

Lynch me, I have no issue with that. It's about time I'm a day one lynch, have never been on in any game. Lots of N1 deaths, but never Day 1.

My stance is still that gogtrial is Town, and anyone trying to use that against me (including gogtrial) I hope it bites you in the ass when I flip Town ;)

Good point, I didn't initially consider that. To the best of my recollection I don't think I've ever seen him as scum. I've mislynched him a number of times while being both Town and scum and I think it was always warranted - he did something that called for it and it was essentially a D1 free mislynch. In last game I was able to try and guess the day's mislynch for glorious prizes, I didn't chose him out of shame for the never-ending streak of abusing his play which was a poor decision as he ended up being the lynch yet again. The point is I've become quite accustomed to see him get lynched on D1 (I believe that's been the case in all games we've played together). If his scum game is more careful I'd say others would have made note of it and he would have become a harder target to mislynch, yet he hadn't until the current game.

It's more of the latter. Last time I didn't make use of my power on him mostly out of shame and pity. This time I'm giving him a break more as a pat on the back. I'd still vote him in the face of no-lynch, though, but it would be done reluctantly.

I mentioned my big no-lynch-backup group isn't ordered in any particular way which isn't 100% correct. I do have some slight preference on some people over others mostly based on gut feelings but I would lynch each and every one in it if I have to right now. I expect things to get a bit more polarized near the deadline or whenever we start getting some claims.

I was thinking trent's argument for town-reading me made sense, but you kept questioning me about it, until I suddenly realized that his argument didn't make sense (#197).
I was specifically left with the impression that you were scum-reading trent because of this post:
I'm saying that, in the (apparently wrong) worldview I had where you'd already concluded that trent's explanation didn't make sense, and were thus scum-reading him, your sudden cessation of pursuing that line of questioning didn't make sense to me, and that I was busy trying to figure out what might then be going on. Since the tack of that read's list was specifically to only list suspicions (instead of counter-arguments for why I townread you), this type of flailing about with speculation is what I was left with.
I am actually left a bit wondering about the thrust of your questioning of me, though. It did very much feel like you were questioning me to determined the veracity of trent's argument. Since that appears not to have been the purpose of that line of questioning... what was?

Sorry about that, must've missed it. Forum replies doesn't works for me for a long time now. The Joe thing was just a joke really, I have no idea if he really drew scum or not, but many times I've scumread him, yet he wasn't. Actually I have no real scum vibes from Joe at the moment.
While still I feel a bit odd about his statement about you, at the moment I see nothing wrong with trent.
My nmillar vote was more or less a way to get things moving, as we were moving in circles and he was at that time more appropriate than other options.
A the moment however I'm rereading the Lift/dedo/Vitek interactions. I will come back after I'm done with all. Until then I don't have anything noteworthy to say about others. So I will focus on the aforementioned trio.

Weekends are usually family time, so i wasn't really online, and also I've been a bit too busy at work, so I've mostly just skimmed the discussions and replied laconically. I'm not a man of walls of text anyway.
Bump please in the mean time.

bump

EBWOP for the latter part of my post:

First nmillar, now you?!

cambridge dictionary? (couldn't find "polite" in any other source). Try merriam webster.


Also, on my previous EBWOP: Ah! That bug is caused by two separate back-to-back double-nested quotes inside, not by lack of single-nested content at the end of the quote? One final EBWOP attempt, just so I can see if I understand correctly what's happening.

FWIW, I was 4th on Joe's wagon. (blotunga unvoted in #78.)
I've already said everything I have to say on the subject of assigning importance to wagon position when the wagon exists almost completely out of RVS votes.

It's not the politeness. He used to be more uncertain of himself, acknowledging that as town, he doesn't know what's going on, and thus easily "swaying" when argumentation was presented. His current holding to his own beliefs is absolutely a good town trait (when not leading to tunneling) - but it's not one I've observed in him before.

It's not just OMGUS. But it might be for a too large part. I'm taking that into account, and as he's given me both town and non-town pings, he's only a fallback option for me.