huh

@ZFR IF masons exist, are you using any of the variations for them? Such as
>>"Most notoriously, some moderators will introduce Mafia-aligned Masons, taking the term "Mason" to imply that it is probable that the other Masons are Town-aligned, and not absolute. These nonconfirmed Masons are supposed to be middling in certainty between Neighbors (see below) and confirmed Masons; however, this is impossible to mathematically verify. "

Gamerager looks bad, and I wouldn't mind voting for them, but not just yet--I want to see their defense (from L-3) first.

Hypothesis: Bookwyrm is mafia. What does he gain from this?
If Bookwyrm is lone godfather, then he knows there are zero or two town PR dice rolled. If masons reveal themselves, he knows everyone else is VT, so he doesn't need to fear roleblocker, vig or doctor messing up his plans.
If there are no masons, there's a resonably high chance of two townies having PR powers (even if both dice rolls came up on the same letter).
=> Is gaining this knowledge worth the exposure he gets? Does the knowledge help mafia more than it helps town?

If Bookwyrm is part of a 2-man mafia team, then he either knows there are four town PR dice rolled (with no godfather in play), or he knows there are six town PR dice rolled (with a godfather in play).
The number of permutations on what the roles could be, and what info he would gain from a mason-reveal, is rather high, and I don't see any that are particularly useful to call out. What is worth mentioning here is that there's guaranteed to be a mafia roleblocker, who - with a mason reveal - would have a relatively small pool of candidates to pick from to block the remaining PR(s).
=> Is gaining this knowledge worth the exposure he gets? Does the knowledge help mafia more than it helps town?

FWIW, I do think that a 3-mason team should claim. I'm far less certain that a 2-mason team claiming would be more beneficial to town than it would be to scum.


I don't recall the words "misrepresent" being applied to any of my posts, offhand, nor alternative with the same meaning. Do you have specific pointers to the posts from either of you to refresh my memory?
I know I have accused both you and him of misrepresenting my words (mostly you, but him in #371). Here's thread searches for misrepresents and misrepresenting.

Blotunga asked me why I questioned him and brought focus to him. I did this because his catch up post after a long absence felt all sorts of wrong to me. It still does. He made it clear his play was deliberate. I thought - and think - that it wasn't in town's best interests. That it came from a town player doesn't change anything about it.
As for your case on me: As far as I can tell, it consists of me having the audacity to suspect you, me being the third to vote you due to being a few minutes slower than scum agentcarr in writing a post, and then a whole lot of you not understanding what I wrote and thus interpreting it in a way that makes you think that it makes me look bad, right? I still think most of that is extremely frustrating, and could come from either town or scum you. My reasons for voting you are mostly for reasons beyond that (for lack of better alternative, you deserve lynching regardless of alignment due to anti-town play - you're also suspicious for not having done the early game things that town-you did in the two games where you were town, and you're now newly suspicious for SPF's behaviour toward you (though of course SPF might've expected you to be lynched, and thus wanted to claim town-points for having defended you; isn't WIFOM just the best?)).



Okay, there's no way you're not doing this deliberately!

(More posts like this one from you though, please? I like you much better this way. Although it also reminds me of the strong start you had as mafia in #57.)


As the votes you gathered should tell you, this is anti-town behaviour. Far more so than:
Could we have two relatively new town players making that mistake two days in a row??!
I'm going to have to re-evaluate how much trust I'm willing to put in my earlier "SPF didn't talk to you at all, thus you're town" call.

Speaking of
@all: I'd really like some feedback on that line of thinking:
It's one of the few solid data points we have. Can you think of counter-arguments, examples of SPF behaving or not behaving this way as scum (anyone know offhand which games he was scum in), or anything else like that? Just like having three masons reveal themselves would be really strong, clearing three town players this way (no matter how prone to newbie mistakes they might be) would be a great boon.


Also, I think I spotted where GameRager's thinking came from:
Everyone who now wants to suspect a gogtrial-gamerager scum team, please form a line on the left, take a number and wait your turn.


Walk me through your thinking there?
I'll freely admit I deliberately went after scene right from the start. I know him to be a chaos risk, and I wanted to sort him while we could still afford it, and get some things moving instead of letting scum hide in RVS. Would scum-me risk that on town-scene? (People might remember I deliberately haunted scene on D1 in #55 as well, but then I *knew* right from the start that he was scum, as I was even scummier. This time I'd be regular scum without the knowledge that scene would be town (or a very tiny chance of being SK))

Please read that again. SPF already was on blotunga's wagon, which was at L-1. I was looking at who was active at that very moment. Of those people, trent and me were still on scene's wagon, and could hammer blotunga right away, OR three players (out of Joe, bookwyrm, spf and flub) would need to move from blotunga to scene.



So, so, so deliberate.

EBWOP: This time I'd be regular scum with the knowledge that scene would be town (or a very tiny chance of being SK)).

I'm starting to think I don't understand what either of us means. Let me try to clear it up. Our dialogue on this topic started after I told Pooka and gogtrial that I don't think it's a great idea to discuss who got blocked and how for the sake of determining potential setups as such conversations bring the risk of disclosing private information that is better kept as such. You accused me of discarding the usefulness of said information and so on.

I hope this puts us both on the same page at least on this particular bit as it's starting to get distracting and boring (to myself at least).

I already said that the mason claims are sensible.


If I was a cynical man I might have said that all of this was to bait an investigation.


I'd like to hear you answer your own question after you get a response from Micro.

And a worthy one, certainly.

Read the OP. Read the sign up thread. Heck, check the admin thread. ZFR decided this game was going to be simple, straight forward C9++. No twists. No variations. You can read the linked C9++ page and see exactly what Masons can and can't do. You can read who they are aligned with. You can see that there aren't any non-Town Masons in the setup.

Does scum!Wyrm really want to reduce the number of people in the lynch pool, especially since he will still be in that pool? If it weren't already obvious, I'm not a Mason.

I think he gave a sort of response in this post so I'll consider it a response, unsatisfactoy as it may be, and go with it.

I think this is strange behavior that needs addressing. The main takeaway is, if Joe does get lynched and he ends up being Town, does GameRager go after scene as he said he would? If GameRager is scum but scene and Joe aren't, it would make more sense to kickstart scene's wagon again, given the D1 madness with him, and wing it from there. It would have worked. Could it be newbie GameRager deciding he could hit two birds with one stone and failing miserably with it?

If he's town, it's bad play and would end up with a mislynch. His Joe vote reminds me of myself in Captain Sapphire when I suggested one of ZFR or trent be lynched to confirm the other's alignment. I was summarily lynched the same Day I suggested the idea; except GR's suggestion happens even earlier and just comes out of nowhere. "Scene voted Joe, let's vote Joe to see if scene is really town!"

It's funny that even scene took issue with that and voted GR.

Ah. I think knowing the setup would be useful, but I agree that we don't want claims (except Mason) at this point; knowing the setup isn't worth full claiming. I was surprised you wouldn't want to know the number of scum around, though.

That entire conversation is entirely separate from the conversation that began with my call for any Masons to claim their role, which includes your factually incorrect comment about 3 masons being impossible. My "Scene will call you town" is linked solely to the bit about 3 masons being impossible.

So looks like the only recent game where SPF was mafia was #53.
He was in a three-person mafia team (which became four after a recruitment, but that hadn't happened yet on D1). Here's the posts he made directed toward each of them on D1:
littlerabbit (replaced by lift in #369): #253, (#373), #407
HSL (replaced by yog in #912): #218, #276, #352, #485, #490, #499

He didn't have any people he completely ignored on D1 in that game, but town-cristi only got two completely insignificant posts at the very, very beginning of RVS.

Nothing is certain, but all the same, I'm feeling pretty good about calling Microfish, PookaMustard and GameRager likely town. flub and dedo are also on the likelier town side of things based on this.

So, who's left?
Bookwyrm, gogtrial, Joe, scene, trent.
Pretty good odds!

If he's lone godfather, I'm thinking he might risk it, yeah. He's facing loooong odds anyway. Kill the masons the next two nights, and then it's just a matter of surviving the odds. As one of the stronger players in the pool, you might pull if off.

If no masons step up, the pool isn't reduced, and if he avoids arousing suspicion due to his reputation for enjoying in this sort of talk, he's no worse off than he was otherwise. He'll just have to really hope there's no town roleblocker that gets on his trail.

As the expert on the subject, do you disagree that scum-you could/would risk this in that particular situation?

As the expert on the subject: no, scum!wyrm doesn't try this. There isn't any real gain to be had, especially since it would mean that a stray Mason kill couldn't leave a stranded Mason with no buddy to confirm him. It means those doctors and roleblockers are aiming at smaller numbers of people; Scum!wyrm MUCH prefers a doctor choosing a target among 9 players than among even 4.

Scum!wyrm much prefers to leave options open, like possibly an emergency Mason claim after two NKs happen to kill two Masons.

Of course, any!wyrm realizes that this is basically the response wyrm gives in this situation, regardless of whether you've successfully identified scum!wyrm's plan. :)

1. Yeah, he(she?) seems that way.

2. Is that a proper vote for scene? If so I might change my vote if it is indeed a vote for scene.


1. Good to know, but why not say Linch as it sounds similar and wouldn't set off the filters/etc? :)

2. Well someone has to be lynched for us to get a shot at hitting scum, and he seems suspect to me(so far). If you have a better option i'd like to hear it.


I like how you take skimming as a sign of scum immediately and not care to check how I played in other games(Hint: I was town before and also skimmed)

Also I "like" how you see me being suspicious of you and instead of explaining why i'm wrong you immediately shift suspicion to me.....seems very scummy to me.

Vote Scene


Because I only vote for possible/likely scum when I know they have a good chance of getting lynched...else why even bother voting?

Even if I had my vote on a townie and a town got lynched we could still gleam some info from the wagon formed on them.

All that painting and then a vote......scum joining a wagon, then?


Fair reasoning and I admit sometimes I don't think these things 100% of the way through.




I am "worried" mainly because I might be in a position to be very helpful to town and want to be able to keep being so so I worry about being lynched and town losing that advantage.

Go look at my previous games when you have a chance. I skimmed/played the same way as I am now, and got killed off....then I turned out to be town doctor(iirc) and town lost a bit of an advantage.


========================
BTW Could I get a BUMP plz.....I need to reply to the rest of the replies/posts here. :)

bmp

Bump

Thank you peeps for the bumps

1. Lol....good one. The funny things is I am a newb at this and not that good(not much experience/not very into going into too much analyzing) but I love the game aspect so I joined to participate with other users. As such, I am bound to look suspect by my playstyle alone and have been lynched before in other games when I was town as well(and important town, no less).

2. True, which is why I voted him today.

I find it funny scene didn't debate what I said about him and shifted the shade on me...it is more than a bit odd, don't you think?