No that is not what i'm saying, you can and should criticise things you don't agree with but it feels lazy to make the argument around ethics if you cannot apply it evenly but yes criticise all you want because showing displeasement is good if it's how you feel.

An here's the thing right it's good that you try avoid chinese goods but completely avoiding them is hard hell even mega companies outside of China use their labor for many of their products so if you buy them you are still supporting china economically.

Good PR is nice too but the thing is investors want maximum profit so it's not in their interest to decline access to the chinese market, privately run companies has more wiggle room as long as the company is profitable but that comes with risks not everyone is willing to take. Money>ethics is how the world works whether we like it or not.

That's the thing, though....not everyone is perfect or 100% morally upright.....so of course there will likely always be more complaints and criticism coming from less perfect/morally upright people. Essentially(as you probably already know), one's moral status doesn't make their criticism any more/less valid.

I know, but it's better than nothing.

And that's part of what I was talking about. Money should not come above ethics.....at least not to such a degree as it does in this world......and the more any of us(you, me, anyone) uses the excuse "that's how the world works", the more likely it is that little(if anything) will change.

-

Anyways, I think GOG has made up it's mind on this and won't likely change it, so I think everyone who wants said game who hasn't gotten it yet should just show the devs some support/love by buying it at their site.

You seem to be arguing that we should not hold businesses to any sort of ethical standards. Businesses should be above accountability for their actions and, as long as they are making money, then anything goes and we should turn a blind eye to their ethical misconduct, because "other companies are doing it anyway".

Yes, businesses make money, but they can (and should) still be expected to maintain certain standards of ethical behavior. After all, GOG.com is a business that has built its reputation based on the ethical principle of opposing DRM. If anything goes in the pursuit of profit, then they may as well open the doors to DRM as well then. After all, it would make a lot more money, right?

I already don't buy from Steam, Epic, Origin, because they sell DRMed games, so I don't care what goes on there. Zoom Platform have said openly that they are willing to sell Devotion on their store and they have spoken with Red Candle; however, in the wake of the issues with GOG, apparently RC have already made a decision to sell their games on their own site and not via a third-party store. Is it their fault if GOG has already burnt the ground there?

Another version of the nonsensical argument that "we shouldn't protest against anything, unless we simultaneously protest against everything." That is utter nonsense and going by that logic the protests that led to such things as women's votes and civil rights in the US would never have happened. No. We need to pick our battles and push back against what we can, when we can. I have been a customer of GOG.com and boycotting them is a small thing that I can do right now to push back against insidious censorship.

I also try to avoid buying Chinese goods where possible, because they have a terrible record on human rights and freedom of speech and are simply becoming too powerful and dominant. However, in the US it is almost impossible to completely avoid Chinese-made products, partly because in some cases there are no alternatives and partly because the information about product sourcing is not always provided.

However, it's not the fault of consumers like us, if we are not being given a real choice. All we can do is to do our best and to push back whenever and wherever we can.

No you are making up bullshit, i said several times you should protest if it's against what you believe in but don't put yourself up as a preacher everywhere you go, People can make their own desicions and we can disagree with them. There is a difference between boycotting and putting yourself on a high horse while making your ethical struggle a public battle.

If you disagree how they are conducting their business it's your right to not support it, i simply said that larger companies opposed to smaller always go where the money is over principles for many factors like investors, staff growth etc and you can see this trend over and over, do you disagree ?

I have never said we shouldn't do anything or making excuses for it, i disagree how it was handled but that doesn't mean you can't make observations about how businesses works, is it right that money goes before ethics ? no but it is whether you want it or not how most larger business conduct themselves.

The moral argument however injected into every message is lazy while completely ignoring why things are as they are.

I thought i have made this clear many times previously in this thread, i don't care what you do or any boycotter for that matter but it does come across as weird when someone brings that to an discussion that isn't really about boycotting, you have set your bar for what you tolerate and act according to them that's perfectly fine.
What i'm getting tired of is pointing out over and over is when you say that money influence how a company behaves something you see in dozens and dozens of companies over the span of many years (observation), somebody is going to make a argument about ethics (money and companies) and somehow connect that with defending a company because that is what they want to see whether it's true or not.

So lets clear up a few things:

I do not agree with how the Devotion debacle was handled and wish it could be reversed even if i don't care the slightest about the game itself.

I do not like the Chinese government and their influence over many companies even though i understand the temptation for companies but i don't see the refusal of selling one indie game is going to change much. If it gets worse eventually then that's one thing but one would have more luck engaging in real politics and try to make an effort in your own country than on some backwater forum about games which basically no one cares about.

I have nothing against your thread of boycotting and certainly don't want to silence it but nor do i want to be constantly misinterpreted by folks saying i am making excuses by making rational arguments why these things happen.
There are people washing away any problem but that's certainly not me, saying that money has power even over ethics is simply a statement of facts and does not mean you should lie down and accept it.
¨
So do you finally understand what it is am trying to say ?

This is the post that started it all:

Companies goes where the money is and that's how it is thus statements are useless, neither Steam, Epic or any mid to larger scale company (meaning when you open up your company for public investing you are pretty much expected to go where the profit is) would risk being shut off from selling their games in china.

There aren't any excuses or endorsement of how they acted here, this is simply company thinking and whether it's right or wrong is up to each individual to decide.

I'm not sure, to be honest. I'm still trying to figure it out ...

Ok. Well, the way I read that is that you seem to basically be saying the following:

1. Companies care about profit and not ethics. They will do whatever is necessary to make money.

2. Therefore, you seem to be implying that it is futile to expect companies to observe ethical standards or to try to criticize or hold them accountable for their ethical conduct.

If that is your opinion, then fair enough. You are of course entitled to your opinion. However, if that is an accurate representation of your statements, then I strongly disagree.

Imo, the first point would be a big over-simplification, to say that all businesses are driven by profit and profit alone. There are many examples I could think of of businesses that care about ethics, even some that have built their reputations largely based on ethical considerations. The Body Shop retail chain in the UK strongly oppose the use of animal testing in cosmetics. Whole Foods Market take a principled stance against foods that contain artificial colors and preservatives. Of course, as previously mentioned, GOG built its reputation by pitching themselves as 'the good guys' and opposing DRM in games. Furthermore, many corporations recently have become more concerned about integrity and corporate responsibility.

For the second point, even if the first were true, I would not agree that a boycott is futile. I have already shown a list of successful consumer boycotts that have been held in the past. If we want to see companies behaving in a more ethical manner, then imo it is very important that we insist on companies that we deal with meeting those standards and hold them accountable if they don't.

So, on those points we may have to agree to disagree.


And then on top of all this is the unavoidable irony that China has recently been cracking down on video games companies (with a resulting drop in the share prices of Tencent and Netease). So, it seems that all these companies that are selling their souls to access the Chinese market are taking quite a risk. Because China is not a free market, regardless of how much western corporate execs might try to convince themselves otherwise. China can and will pull the rug out from under al of these companies, as soon as it is in their interest to do so.

Sorry for the late reply, had some things to do but i will try to be more clear with this reply.

It's close to what i think but i will like to make some changes.

1. It ofc depends on the company and the people who represent it but in general making money seem more important than acting to the value they say they stand for like Blizzard and Hong Kong, censoring skeletons in their games, workers and more, EA caring about players or the multitude of companies making use of chinese labor while spouting of how good and moral they are.

2. I don't think we should "expect" but rather wish they would uphold the ethical standard they are promoting and as for boycotting, this is something i rarely do but i would if something got bad enough and there is no other way around change but i'm more of the mind of observing before boycotting.
As for the effeciency of boycotting, yes there boycotts who absolutely succeed but it's hard especially within entertaiment when most average joes who make up the majority of the market don't look twice about anything they buy and just consume.
In the thread of boycotting where you list the specific issues you have a problem with, you said earlier in this thread that there is 100 boycotters but that is over the span of around 7-8 months since that day now and users come and go so tbh that is not a lot.

Yes China is not a free maket and you will need the governments approval to do business there which is you know something we all have mixed feelings about but is a very large market and growing by the day so it's certainly attractive to sell your games there although the governments willingness to crack down on companies and people they don't like makes it unreliable in the long term.

Also a little reply to GamezRanker, they have not changed yet though and there is only EAs words so far except for Ultima Underworld and Syndicate but will it continue ? we'll see but i hope they will start paying attention to releasing drm free games again or at the very least not remove eveything just because they want to erase their classics.
That wasn't preaching though but voicing displeasure of those games removals, preaching to me is telling people how to be ethical about something according to their own moral compass.

That statement is what i was talking about, they blamed the " gamers " for it's removal. People where and still are pissed at them, they have yet to reply to that, stop trying to give false answers.
Modern crybabies, wow you really live in a fantasy world, you don't see the big picture here, and that is we don't need China Censorship in Europe, America or any other Country, Freedom of Speech is Sacred, maybe you don't like it, but some of us do. The game has nothing to do with " a reason to complain ". It has everything to do with the fact that i don't need China to tell me what and where to buy something i want. Gog selling themselves for cash is low.

Yes blame the bully not the ones helping him be the bully in the first place, nice logic ... GOG is an accomplice. Freedom of Speech should never be negotiable no matter the price. If GOG had the balls to admit ok guys look we removed it cause we don't want to lose the Chinese market, then sure i'd give them credit for at least admitting to it, but they cowered like mice, i don't know about you but why would you want to mess with such entity that at any second can blame you for their action ;).