My comment to flub was a joke: “hey nice looking kid, he has your looks”. How is that fishing for Masons and why would I?

Speaking of which: make sure to refresh the thread just before posting once it looks like the end of the day is near (whether someone is about to be lynched or the deadline is close). And if you've been gone for awhile, then scan the last few posts for announcements from Lift that the game thread has been closed for the Night.

tl;dr => Before posting, make sure Night has not fallen.

Just the usual "He talks".

No, but that doesn't mean that wasn't his intention when he said it.

And just for the record, I stopped voting for you because it didn't look like the wagon was going anywhere.

Glad you finally agree.

Well if you get Nk'd it won't be by me. But I certainly won't be shedding a tear.

It depends whether you consider scum will be aiming for NKs or conversions. If scum want to convert then hitting townies with lynches is bad for them, if they just want to kill people then it doesn't matter who they hit with lynches and hitting the masons at night is better (just because it removes a town utility).

Meant to question this myself earlier but completely forgot.

I don't see that... if there are two options as to why someone might be overly defensive and one of them has already been suggested (scum) then it seems clear to me that HSL was suggesting the other (PR).

Yeah, I can certainly see why you might think that. And you are right to be suspicious, but actually my words of encouragement were mainly because you've voiced a number of things which I believe quite strongly.
Stuff like any lynch is better than no lynch so day 1 any vote is basically as good is another. Saying "Picking him relates to my second point: I have to pick somebody. He's as good as any." is pretty much my day 1 play in a nutshell most of the time.

And there is also the element that you are new and we are friends :)

I've already covered this; of course not, but they will be scum hunting just as much as town is to try and figure who to avoid with conversions and who to try to lynch or NK (depending on what their plan is)

Better than not voting at all as far as I'm concerned.

And it's not what he's doing as much as why he might be doing it.

Really? You seem to have at least some ideas...

I'm certainly not sane... but I don't think you are barking up the right tree yet if that's what you think.

There’s one reason why I can see that happening, killing leaves a flip which will help town solve this but conversion could leave less traces for town to follow. There’s a possibility of hitting scum or hacker but that information(which could be used to either try a lynch on said target or nk on n2) would then be known just by scum team doing conversion rather than the entire player set. I could be wrong though since you people seem good at finding converts. Also won’t deny that killing hackers would be more desirable for scum but unless they just outright state it they’re better off with conversion rather than kill. I do hope I made some sense at least, correct me if it makes no sense. Tunelled pretty hard last game with a bad theory and don’t want it to happen again.

@sage Leonard started it. Meh, it’s more like battle of wills on day 1 rather than getting it right. Kinda what mchack said about self-preservation before, I think I get it now.

His goal as scum may well have been to blend in, but you are basically saying that with that goal in mind, he chose the one way that would more than likely cause the exact opposite at the time.
Weren't you the one that pointed out last game not to underestimate mchack?


Yes, grandpa, but that's not what I was doing; questioning someone is more often than not about that someone's motives and thought process.


Grandpa told me not to discuss PRs. I defer to his wisdom; I suggest you do the same.


My my, aren't you a tad (too) touchy... Am I supposed to not question you this game?



Heh.


You've played in three games before this one, were scum in only one of them, and in none of these games were you under any real pressure; not much of a meta from a similar situation to go by, is there? What is known, however, is that you're not the naive guy you seem to try to make us think you are.
I don't expect you to deviate from your usual play, but I do watch out for the thought process/progression behind the arguments you make, and the way you make/word them.


I may or may not have read too much into it, but better left alone at this point of the game.



The points aren't related.

Game #25 - adaliabooks in his post #228 pretty much summed it up to mchack. It's the perfect example of how two scum teams (two Godfathers, to be precise, and a bunch of lonesome scum with no killing power until they joined one of the Godfathers) went after the same player Night after Night, until one killed the other.
It was a nod to mchack that the case of both teams choosing the same target isn't all that incredible.

As for game #30, I believe I've already made my point pretty clear - I reminded people of BlueMooner in relation to ZFR, then went into more detail in my post #212, replying to mchack and Leonard03.

That's a very odd thing to say. If he flips town I would hope all town players are sad...

I write my posts as I read through the thread, so a possibility occurred to me later on.

Fine.

This game has:
3 Mason
5 Town
2 Scum A
2 Scum B

Normally, in a Mafia game, scum starts out with more knowledge than town (since they know for sure who they are, and thus who town must be). Thus, town gains from trying to suss-out scum by getting them to hopefully slip-up; if town slips up (other than a brain-dead soft- or hard-claim for a power role), then they haven't lost anything, because scum already knew.

In this game, it is the reverse. Masons know more information than scum. They know fully who 3 people are at the start of the game, but the scum teams each only know 2. Trying to getting people to slip up on Day 1, in this case, actually has a higher likelihood of hurting town than scum, because of this knowledge inconsistency.

So, if, on Day 1, we are not discussing PRs (which is doubly dumb in this game), or not actively trying to get players to slip up and inadvertently reveal something, then what is left?

So, FIFO (first in, first out):

Unvote: adaliabooks
Vote: flubbucket

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Unofficial Vote Count

flubbucket - 4 Votes (trentonlf 123/213; Bookwyrm627 187; adaliabooks 265; mchack 268, Krypsyn 308)

Bookwyrm627 - 0 Votes - (mchack 15/56; Bookwyrm627 34/47; adaliabooks 39/46; Krypsyn 42/49, Hunter65536 108/172)

trentonlf - 0 Votes

dedoporno - 0 Votes (Leonard03 107/169)

adaliabooks - 3 Votes (ZFR 10/32; Hunter65536 16/108; Krypsyn 28/33; mchack 117/174; Leonard03 169; Krypsyn 171/308; ZFR 192; Sage103082 300)

Krypsyn - 1 Votes - (Sage103082 22/300; ZFR 32/62; Krypsyn 33/42; Krypsyn 49/61; trentonlf 72/123; Krypsyn 74/129; trentonlf 261)

ZFR - 0 Votes (adaliabooks 9/26; Bookwyrm627 12/30; Krypsyn 24/28)

Hunter65536 - 0 votes (Bookwyrm627 30/34)

Leonard03 - 0 Votes (adaliabooks 87/115; mchack 94/117; Bookwyrm627 127/127)

mchack - 0 Votes (ZFR 62/153; Bookwyrm627 127/187; Krypsyn 129/171; adaliabooks 197/265; trentonlf 213/261)

Sage103082 - 0 Votes - (trentonlf 20/72; Bookwyrm627 47/127; adaliabooks 55/65; Krypsyn 61/74; mchack 201/268)

HypersomniacLive - 0 Votes (mchack 56/94; flubbucket 80/97)

Lifthrasil (i.e. suicide vote) - 0 Votes (dedoporno 98/114)

Other - 0 votes (flubbucket 97/160)

Not Voting - HypersomniacLive, dedoporno, flubbucket, Hunter65536

Yes, but that does not mean he or anyone else is safe from making a mistake. Should I disregard everything it attracts my attention just because I don't want to underestimate the players?

I didn't say that's what you were doing. I felt that was a possible direction where it might have went (not necessarily by your design) which was something I would like to avoid.

You are allowed to do whatever you wish. You just seemed to take a solid stand out of nowhere for mchack by your own volition so I made a remark about it.


I'm curious, would you take any lynch as long as it happens?

One less town is one less person to mislynch. You must know that about me by now.

But I'm fairly certain mchack is scum, so no one (other than his buddy) should be sad when he dies.

I find this rationale works in most games really, but even more so for this one as you have pointed out.

Sometimes I think people forget that this is a game, sure we can sit around endlessly trying to figure out exactly who is scum day 1, or we can just move things along and get to the next day where we have more info and a better chance of getting to a game winning state.


As for why I believe flub is an excellent choice... his volunteering, as it were, to be the lynch I see as a kind of soft claim. Now there is only one role in this game who would sincerely volunteer to be lynched, and that's a vanilla townie.

So what do we think is going to happen to flub tonight if he is not lynched? An almost guaranteed vanilla townie?

Sure, it could be a trap... but as a mason that would be an exceedingly stupid play and as scum it would only really work if he could reliably deflect the lynch to someone else.
Right now I'm the only real alternative to him and other than Sage voting me for my support of Krypsyn the other two votes have little to no reason beyond gut feeling behind them (and Krypsyn who has now moved his vote anyway) it's not exactly going to be easy to swing that (particularly as a number of you have said you find me townie or will not vote me today so that's even more of an uphill struggle)

So in short, flub pretty much needs to be lynched today.

Trust in Masons.

Then,

unvote: adalia
vote: flubbucket

My opinion of other players hasn't changed much, but, again if someone has to be lynched it could be flub.

I wholeheartedly agree that we spend way too much time on Day 1’s talking about who is possible scum and why instead of actually voting and moving the game along. There needs to be some discussions that happen, but the endless repeating of the same thing over and over gets old and I think it also makes a perfect smoke screen for scum to hide behind.

I also pointed the exact thing about flub earlier (him probably being town vanilla), but I don’t agree that he should be lynched simply to lynch someone. If I think someone’s town I will not put my vote on them. I have a feeling flub will be the lynch today because once that wagon gets to 5 votes I don’t see it stopping, but it will not have my vote on it.

That's not my point, he may well be town today (in fact I do believe he is) but if he is vanilla town he won't be tomorrow.
Having a practically guaranteed vanilla town will be too good a target for scum to pass up, little to no risk of dying and we either lynch flub tomorrow or one of the scum teams has three members.

That's why he needs to be lynched if he has claimed vanilla.

There is another side to it, but I'll only go into it if really necessary because it does give a tactic to scum that they may well not have realised yet.

Was he trying to make a semi-serious case about Bookwyrm627? Were you?


And how is his input helpful come D2, let alone more helpful than that of flubbucket or Sage103082? More so in a setup with two scum teams that have a conversion ability on top? He can spin what he's doing any way he wants, and no-one would be any wiser. Last game, Bookwyrm627 said something about clean slates on D2.



Obviously.


Very clearly.


Only one.


If I were scum and scum-buddies with mchack, why would I be so very clearly and obviously trying to save him on D1 when, as you yourself pointed out, he had a mere two votes, risking the exposure of our connection and my own potential lynch at the process (the latter applying to both cases of me being scum)?

*WIFOM argument "you'd not do it, so you'd do it" incoming in 5, 4, 3, 2, ...*


Because if I were scum and had said intention, doing what you believe I did wouldn't in any way, shape or form stand out, with all the implications I already mentioned, right? Right?

*More of the above sort of WIFOM arguments incoming in 3, 2, ... 1!*


Then you should vote me, and convince six others to lynch me Today. And after I flip, see how much of scum's work you've done, and who all was willing to join you, but don't forget to look at those that weren't, and everyone's reason(s) for their stance. If you're town, that is.



True that, and of course you shouldn't, but neither is what got my attention.


mchack was not the focus of my "stand".


The reason adaliabooks is firm on lynching flubbucket is to avert his quite likely conversion Tonight, not to simply lynch someone.



Can we drop the voting of flubbucket a couple of notches? I'd like to see what else Sage103082 has to say Today.