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ZFR: This is my concern too.
In a normal game I assume you aren't giving any information to mafia no matter what you say (since they already know everything on who's with/against them), but with 2 scum factions by unmasking one, you could be helping the other? But they can easily think of that too.
What's QT? I can't find it on the acronym mafia page
https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Commonly_Used_Abbreviations
which is where I check there for stuff like EBWOP. (I can't find IQ either, but I assume you just meant IQ ;))
QT is quick topic, it's where the scum teams will chat at night (and the masons during the day).

No, even in a normal game you can give a lot away; who has or might have PRs, who is the towniest player and the best NK, who is scummy enough you might be able to push a lynch.

Town should always be careful what they say.

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trentonlf: You seem to think scum are not capable of thinking for themselves. Do you think scum are going to just blindly post in their QT as to what they are wanting to do without talking about it among themselves? Do you think because someone is scum that they all of a sudden drop IQ points and can only use ideas posted in the game?
Of course they are, but that doesn't mean they see everything or think of everything.
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ZFR: This is my concern too.
In a normal game I assume you aren't giving any information to mafia no matter what you say (since they already know everything on who's with/against them), but with 2 scum factions by unmasking one, you could be helping the other? But they can easily think of that too.
What's QT? I can't find it on the acronym mafia page
https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Commonly_Used_Abbreviations
which is where I check there for stuff like EBWOP. (I can't find IQ either, but I assume you just meant IQ ;))
QT is a website called Quick Topic that is normally used for scum (or anyone with chat abilities) to privately chat at night/day.
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adaliabooks: No, even in a normal game you can give a lot away; who has or might have PRs, who is the towniest player and the best NK, who is scummy enough you might be able to push a lynch.
I see. By "normal" I had a completely normal game in mind. The 75% vanilla townies and 25% mafia kind.
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adaliabooks: No, even in a normal game you can give a lot away; who has or might have PRs, who is the towniest player and the best NK, who is scummy enough you might be able to push a lynch.
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ZFR: I see. By "normal" I had a completely normal game in mind. The 75% vanilla townies and 25% mafia kind.
The second and third point still apply even in a completely role-less game.
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adaliabooks: QT is quick topic, it's where the scum teams will chat at night (and the masons during the day).

No, even in a normal game you can give a lot away; who has or might have PRs, who is the towniest player and the best NK, who is scummy enough you might be able to push a lynch.

Town should always be careful what they say.

Of course they are, but that doesn't mean they see everything or think of everything.
Right, so no one should ever post anything in the game to try and find scum or help town at all because it might help scum. Makes perfect sense to me to play that way now, why didn't I think of that before....
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trentonlf: Right, so no one should ever post anything in the game to try and find scum or help town at all because it might help scum. Makes perfect sense to me to play that way now, why didn't I think of that before....
Of course not, but we should all at least be careful of what we say.

There is a difference between playing the game and scum hunting and say, naming a list of people you think are masons. The first is fine, the second definitely not.

I'm sorry if I seem a little on the overly cautious side but I just think that there are certain things your not supposed to say out loud in mafia games...
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mchack: Let me ask you a question:

You are scum, you are at L-1, you claim mason, lynch disperses (but now you have to be really afraid of the nk from the other scum team. They don't know you false claimed. They think they found a mason. Real masons just laugh about it and go on. They wouldn't counterclaim, why would they? For them the fakeclaim is a sure scum tell. Don't have to out themselves just because they know 1 scum for sure now. let's say this goes on. not all are nightkilled or even real masons get nightkilled. We'll have the flips. Only the real masons will flip mason and nothing can prevent a real mason from flipping so. This means as soon as 3 masons have flipped any other claim for mason from living persons is automatically a sure scum tell.

Still so sure scum will simply claim mason and thereby we can never lynch other than vanilla until all masons have claimed together?
nope, claiming mason will kill scum for sure, sooner or later. So it's back to simple scumhunting and lynching the scumiest and we need all the vanilla we have for that, too.
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adaliabooks: You are entirely missing the point.

Claiming mason isn't a good claim, it's the ONLY claim. Yes, scum are going to die in the night if they claim mason (although even that isn't guaranteed. Why kill a mason once you know who they are? You can avoid them and go for a conversion instead).
But if it's between that and being lynched, of course they will claim mason.
it isn't. claiming vanilla town is viable. flub seems to do fine and he was as near to lynch as you are.

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adaliabooks: As for what I would do?
If I was almost guaranteed to die in the night I would take my risky slightly suicidal conversion shot, because what is there to lose? And if it hits then we are no better off (assuming the scum is NK'd), and in fact probably worse off because someone who was town and who was read as town is now scum.
And if it doesn't their buddy no knows for sure who a mason or other scum is.
you sure think alot about what to do tonight as scum. In both cases we are better off, though:
a)conversion works but scum gets nk. (scumnumber stays the same) is way better than conversion works and scum simply have one more player (scum+1) which is what would happen if the scum didn't have to claim at all because no-one is scumhunting but only lynching the player that is most likely to be town vanilla.
b)conversion doesn't work. granted scumbuddy does know one person that is either scum or mason but doesn't know which of the two, but all of town knows one scum that just claimed mason before (by the flip) and can look at all his conversations/ interactions with other players again searching and hopefully finding that buddy

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adaliabooks: Admittedly that point only really stands if everyone agrees that claimed vanillas have to be lynched, which I thought they would but obviously they don't. In that case claiming vanilla isn't an instant death knell for scum.
it doesn't stand. no matter whether we lynch vanillas or not. It's all about circumstance and how the player acts. If you claimed vanilla right now, I wouldn't take my vote off you. I simply wouldn't believe you. could be different for others doing that to avoid lynch. It's all about what a player says and does all day long. not about what they claim.

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adaliabooks: As for the second part, as soon as two masons are dead then there is no way to verify the remaining mason claims as being true or false (assuming they never claimed and confirmed each other before death). Which means that we have to go from not lynching any masons to lynching all of them, and at some point we will hit town in doing so (and while we are doing that scum will be converting us behind our backs).
you think about this game as if only the numbers count and no interactions scumtells etc happen every day, and also as if scum has infinite recruiting capabilities and can go on converting townies night after night and as if they are not going around trying to kill each other...

but ok: Which day is that, when 4-7 people claimed mason, all three real ones are in there and two of the real masons are already dead and now town decides to lynch off all remaining 2-5 mason-claimers one by one, day after day which will eventually hit the real one and does give scum time to convert? Which day? how many people are left anyway? (with potentially 3 ppl dying each day/night circle) and how many scum? have we hit any scum yet?
Depends on a lot of things doesn't it? town should have loads of information by then... to react in which ever way is best for town.

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adaliabooks: What we need to do is prevent conversions. If by tomorrow we haven't lynched scum and they get two conversions (unlikely, but getting more and more possible as this day drags on) then town is in a really bad place. Out of 11 players 6 of them would be scum. Sure, they're not on the same team, but it's hard enough for town to agree a lynch without two rival teams of scum trying to control things too.
both of which (scumteams) trying hard to kill each other off.

Also your way of preventing conversion is by lynching townies. my way is try hard and lynch scum. Which is better to prevent conversions? remember only Original Gangsters have the conversion shot. A dead OG is one possible conversion gone from the game forever. (leaving 3 for the rest of the game) A dead townie is only making the pool for conversion smaller (leaving 4 for the rest of the game) but also making it way harder for town to win this.

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adaliabooks: Even if we hit scum today if they can pull off two conversions we are still in a really bad position, so everything we do should be trying to stop conversions from happening.
We do that by
a) Killing claimed vanillas
b) Trying not to get our masons outed
c) lynching scum

Guess what, I'm for c!
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Leonard03: [...] Don't remember. [...] Can't find the game I'm thinking of anywhere. Or perhaps you know of the game I'm trying to remember? [...]
Which game are you thinking of? Give me some info, like setup, what role you had, something memorable that happened.


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Leonard03: [...] FINE! Mr. Grumpy Pants. I'm sacrificing my precious, precious sleep time for you.
...
That took me NINETEEN minutes. Anyways, you're going to need to explain a bit about what goes on around his play. I took a poke through the later part of the thread and saw dedo self hammer... because game was a forgone conclusion? Also, I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say here, as from what I see flub had a similar play last game where he was town first day, then converted, then lynched day 2. Am I missing something? [...]
You must be a slower reader than me then, and English isn't even my native tongue.

You appeared perplexed by the idea of flubbucket seriously suggesting to be lynched, and took his position to be a joke initially. I referred you to game #51, because flubbucket may be joking around a lot, but he's also an intelligent, experienced and tactical player.

This is the town-mindset side of things. He could well be scum counting on enough people connecting the dots in this specific way and not lynch him in the end, and I certainly don't put it past him, because he's an intelligent, experienced and tactical player.

(I see ZFR made a similar point in his post #431)


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Leonard03: [...] Oh, and I think you asked about the part in the town PM where it includes "Dying for your team". I was kind of under the impression that was included in most town PMs? I seem to not be able to access my old chat messages so can't confirm. [...]
For someone that has gone over the thread, and has replied or commented on almost everything since they last were on, you're seriously "Oh, and I think" regarding my third and last question I asked you in the very same post you already responded to by quoting it twice?

I asked you about that bit in a very specific context in this particular game setup. I'll be waiting for your reply to it.


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Leonard03: Well, I know my reasons for voting you, they're in my head. [...]
When you voted adaliabooks you attributed it to antsy-scum vibes (post #206). When I asked you about them, you said it was just a feeling (post #219). But here you say that you do have reasons. Care to share them with the rest of us?


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Leonard03: [...] But ZFR, I dunno, I wasn't expecting him to vote you.
Why weren't you expecting ZFR to vote adaliabooks?


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Leonard03: [...] Also, who are you thinking you'd vote for right now? [...]
I'm not quite there yet.



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adaliabooks: [...] Was that what you were trying to avoid saying? [...]
Yes and no.


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adaliabooks: [...] Well lets say five people post that they find Leonard very scummy and they happen to be right. Maybe the other scum team had found him to be quite townie but now that his possible scuminess is pointed out that team decide not to try convert him. [...]
If at least five people found a player very scummy and happen to be right, isn't it equally possible that at least two more look closer into him, which may well result in said player getting lynched, hence remove them from the picture before Night fall, and reduce the scum numbers by one?



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trentonlf: [...] Do you think scum are going to just blindly post in their QT as to what they are wanting to do without talking about it among themselves? Do you think because someone is scum that they all of a sudden drop IQ points and can only use ideas posted in the game?
There's always a chance they have overlooked or missed something; it has happened.
And while they certainly think things over and exchange ideas, with two 2-man scum teams, the ideas floating among each team may well be more limited than say in a single 4-man team.

Being cautious can't harm us.
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adaliabooks: Of course not, but we should all at least be careful of what we say.

There is a difference between playing the game and scum hunting and say, naming a list of people you think are masons. The first is fine, the second definitely not.

I'm sorry if I seem a little on the overly cautious side but I just think that there are certain things your not supposed to say out loud in mafia games...
I don't normally do lists, I find they give too much information to scum. The only reason I posted a list earlier on who I thought might be scum is because I see myself being killed tonight and a dead me can't give that list. But there's no way I would ever post a list of possible town PR's (nor could I see most anyone else doing it, even scum).

You also seem to think the only thing we can do is scum hunt, when in fact i think we need to be town hunting as well. If you are town and are pretty sure who else might be town then you are able to find scum a whole lot easier. But being afraid to post about what scum might do or not do is just another smoke screen for scum to hide behind.

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HypersomniacLive: There's always a chance they have overlooked or missed something; it has happened.
And while they certainly think things over and exchange ideas, with two 2-man scum teams, the ideas floating among each team may well be more limited than say in a single 4-man team.

Being cautious can't harm us.
To underestimate scum is the detriment of town. I am by far one of the lesser deep thinkers in this game when it comes to strategy and seeing patterns in interactions, and if I can think of something that is possible I am pretty sure most anyone else here can think of the same thing.

There's also a difference in being cautious and being afraid to talk about anything. For me as long as we are not talking about our PM's or any power roles I could care less what is mentioned.
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Hunter65536: How would one go about analyzing wagons in this case though? Lets say mafia gets lucky and offs a mason what then? Placing too much trust or emphasis on one role ain't a good plan IMO.
Three Mafia players are stranded in a Mafia game. They are wary and find a target. They want to lynch, but how?
Player 1 says: “Let’s start throwing accusations around. It will force the target to slip up, and then we can lynch him/her”.
“Are you crazy?” says player 2. “All the accusations will spread and cause confusion, and we will have nothing concrete to base actions on. We should discuss our possible roles openly to form a strategy. In this way we will have more information in future Days.”
“Both of you are wrong!” states player 3. “What the hell do we know might be helpful to scum in this scenario?! The solution is simple: Assume we have a Mason…”

I think it loses something this way, but close enough.
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HypersomniacLive: But now that Leonard03 replied - do you remember? Were you scum in game #30? Was he playing in that game?
now, I do. was not scum in #30 and no leonard was not playing that game either.
Leonard can look up which game he actually meant by himself. Won't interfere in that anymore ;)

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HypersomniacLive: And where exactly does the dungeon master bit fit in with all this?
in that same post I was answering to, flub said:
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flubbucket: I'm an old dungeon master from the '70s so I have a focus on making sure everyone has a good time. Some players like to solve the puzzle, some like the struggle and the fight, some like to move forward as quickly as possible, and some like to look into every single corner.
So I told him, he isn't dungeon master in this game.
meaning he may well have the intention of "making sure everyone has a good time" and think his play is best for everyone, but that he can't make us do what he wants. He can't decide who gets lynched. He isn't the dungeon master here.
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mchack: remember only Original Gangsters have the conversion shot. A dead OG is one possible conversion gone from the game forever.
That's a good point actually when weighing pros and cons, I had forgotten about that particularity.

@flub, everyone is talking about the context of your lynch but I think we haven't asked what your own reads are. Given your situation sharing your reads shouldn't be that helpful to scum anyway so there is no reason not to do it, but as HSL puts it, having them on record would be useful, especially in a situation where you're still alive Tomorrow.
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dedoporno: @flub, everyone is talking about the context of your lynch but I think we haven't asked what your own reads are. Given your situation sharing your reads shouldn't be that helpful to scum anyway so there is no reason not to do it, but as HSL puts it, having them on record would be useful, especially in a situation where you're still alive Tomorrow.
yep it would, I asked him twice before. He didn't give any names. Maybe you have more luck...
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mchack: remember only Original Gangsters have the conversion shot. A dead OG is one possible conversion gone from the game forever.
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dedoporno: That's a good point actually when weighing pros and cons, I had forgotten about that particularity.

@flub, everyone is talking about the context of your lynch but I think we haven't asked what your own reads are. Given your situation sharing your reads shouldn't be that helpful to scum anyway so there is no reason not to do it, but as HSL puts it, having them on record would be useful, especially in a situation where you're still alive Tomorrow.
Given my situation?!?!

Please explain....
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flubbucket: Please explain....
Global understanding that you are Vanilla Town that may be lynched because of reasons or may not be lynched because of other reasons in which case may or not be converted by the scum.