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General discussionForum Mafia #48: S.T.A.L.K.E.R. - Return to the Zone(437 posts)(437 posts)
(437 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted May 31, 2017
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Progress through the Red Forest is slow and nightfall seems to slow down things even more. Everyone is listening into the dark to the strange noises of mutants and who knows what else. Just saying a few words now and then. Just enough to state that one is still there. Everyone seems to suspect almost everyone else. But no one is sure what to do about these suspicions and about those hidden Monolith scum in their midst. Perhaps talking more would help. In spite of the dark night and the scary forest around them.
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Posted May 31, 2017
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RWarehall: Do you want him to reveal if it's not useful information? Do you want him to reveal if what he has to say isn't useful to us, but might help scum? If he made up that claim through educated guesses and is actually scum, fantastic. I'd be happy to lose to that. But logic to me, says he is town because the events as described fit my knowledge base and no one seems to be counter-claiming the reception of a PM when he claims to his been sent it. I cannot contradict his claim. We know JMich is a solid player. As such, I'm fine with him dispensing the information in his own fashion. He's not dumb, he'll reveal it if he feels its useful to town, just as he presumably felt revealing that part of it was necessary to clear him.
I want him to be useful to town if he is town. That's what I want. He hasn't given us a boop thing that couldn't be reasonably guessed at based on knowledge from last game. He's made a point of not being productive this game, actively taking loopholes in questions to avoid helping town work out who is actually scum.

What about his posts, aside from that one thing early Day 1 where he said something he said last game when he happened to be town, indicates he is town? What actually makes him worth sparing?
Posted May 31, 2017
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Bookwyrm627: What about his posts, aside from that one thing early Day 1 where he said something he said last game when he happened to be town, indicates he is town? What actually makes him worth sparing?
First I think your banking way to much on this game being so similar to last stalker game. Second there is something in Jmich respond that makes me believe he is town as well.
Posted May 31, 2017
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Sage103082: Second there is something in Jmich respond that makes me believe he is town as well.
Like what? Because I don't see it.
Posted May 31, 2017
What makes you worth sparing? To be fair, I had you at null, typical Bookwyrm, nothing unusual, thus a slight Town lean as you were getting persecuted plus some gambit which you have denied. Day 2, you have been tunneling and are not all that reflective of new events.

Now, JMich has provided something substantial. Granted, it pretty cheesy and somewhat game-breaking talking about PMs and their existence and timing. It tarnishes our win if we do, but I also understand about noticing things based on them too. It's not like one could keep that thought out of one's head, nor dismiss the conclusion about Drealmer that it led to.

What JMich did was more than just guesswork. I did not have a role day 1. I did not receive a PM at the beginning of night phase, so his supposition about Drealmer seems to be likely true. And we are at MyLo and no one has come out to counter-claim. I do not see what you are complaining about. If he were guessing and scum, there was no certainty that PRs would be sent a PM, plus he went a 2nd step. What kind of scum can make a splash play guess about something like PMs AND then continue the logic as if that were absolutely true and notice what that might imply about Drealmer and his night kill? I don't buy that this can be a scam.

Personally, I have the least confidence right now in Cristigale as town. Gamma has defended himself well and I would probably take you, Bookwyrm, next.
Posted May 31, 2017
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RWarehall: What makes you worth sparing?
I have been active and pushing since the cultist crap got started. I have been open about answering questions and responding to people. I have been placing out reads on multiple players, and I've been backing those reads up with examples from posts.

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RWarehall: Now, JMich has provided something substantial. Granted, it pretty cheesy and somewhat game-breaking talking about PMs and their existence and timing. It tarnishes our win if we do, but I also understand about noticing things based on them too. It's not like one could keep that thought out of one's head, nor dismiss the conclusion about Drealmer that it led to.

What JMich did was more than just guesswork. I did not have a role day 1. I did not receive a PM at the beginning of night phase, so his supposition about Drealmer seems to be likely true. And we are at MyLo and no one has come out to counter-claim. I do not see what you are complaining about. If he were guessing and scum, there was no certainty that PRs would be sent a PM, plus he went a 2nd step. What kind of scum can make a splash play guess about something like PMs AND then continue the logic as if that were absolutely true and notice what that might imply about Drealmer and his night kill? I don't buy that this can be a scam.
By your own admission, you can only verify that those without a power role during N1 did not get a PM on N1. You can't be certain that those with a PR did get a PM about taking their night action. You can't even be certain that Drealmer didn't just post in the thread about catching up when he first got to him computer, possibly ignoring any chat message he may have had before he posted, assuming (as you admit) that the site was even displaying he had a chat message.

"No one has come out to counter claim": What would they be counter claiming? JMich and Trent both having a PR does NOT preclude anyone else from having a PR.

Starting from "if you had a PR, then you got a PM at nightfall" (which is a very, very reasonable assumption to make; it happens most of the time among our group!) and going to "Well, Drealmer might have been vanilla because he posted 8 hrs after nightfall so he probably didn't get a PM" is easy. It is also unhelpful, because it doesn't actually help identify who is scum, or town, among the living players.

We're possibly at Mylo (how can you be sure we're at Mylo, RW?), and JMich isn't working with the rest of us on solving the game except in a superficial way, when poked into doing so. If he were the cop, then he wouldn't have made a statement like "Which means that verifying someone as town would really help. Giving extra info to scum is irrelevant if we do mislynch today." If he had an investigate role, his results would help (except Parity Cop, which I just don't see being a factor in this game (more on that in a moment)). If he had a vig shot, I expect someone, quite possibly me, would be dead. A roleblocker/jailer would tell us something, and maybe a RB reveal would help any tracker/watcher that might have happened last night know to go ahead and claim. Doctor is about the only role that springs to mind that wouldn't give any direct information, and yet it would still be useful to town to know.

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Sage103082: First I think your banking way to much on this game being so similar to last stalker game.
I've been assuming how the PRs are distributed because Lift indicated that was the sort of game we were looking at playing (jumping PRs, like last time).

With that in mind, a role claim from JMich doesn't actually endanger him or the use of it, because he (probably) no longer has it! If JMich was the doctor, he can indicate what he did with the role (passed it to someone or returned it to the pool), and if he passed it, then we can get verification from a second player that it arrived at its location. If that is denied, we know that we've got a 50% of hitting scum just by choosing randomly between JMich and whoever he claims received the power.

With powers bouncing around, Parity Cop would be a worse-than-useless without some significant mod-work.
Posted May 31, 2017
I am available most of the day. Going to start with Gamma's questions and work my way forward.
Posted May 31, 2017
Again Bookwyrm, you are looking past much of what I said. Yes, he can guess there might have been a night start PM, but I find it harder to believe you can guess that and then think about it firmly enough to draw further conclusions about what that might mean, if true, about Drealmer. I find it far more likely that he can draw conclusions based on received PMs, because he actually got one and thus, he was able to make a speculative thought in regards to Drealmer and why he posted so long after nightfall. I think it's a good observation myself.

Furthermore, I don't see why you are insisting so adamantly he reveal. If he has useful information, I'm sure he'd share, otherwise there may be use holding back. Should we try to lynch someone, and they make up a claim, he's now in a position to judge it and possibly counter it. Whereas if he or anyone else were to reveal, it makes it far easier for scum to create a plausible false claim. Why should he do this when he has not been pushed to lynch?

But you should already know this. You are either overreaching tunneling town, or scum who pushed too hard on a mislynch and sees the tide going against you. Either way, it's not a good look.
Posted May 31, 2017
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RWarehall: Again Bookwyrm, you are looking past much of what I said. Yes, he can guess there might have been a night start PM, but I find it harder to believe you can guess that and then think about it firmly enough to draw further conclusions about what that might mean, if true, about Drealmer. I find it far more likely that he can draw conclusions based on received PMs, because he actually got one and thus, he was able to make a speculative thought in regards to Drealmer and why he posted so long after nightfall. I think it's a good observation myself.

Furthermore, I don't see why you are insisting so adamantly he reveal. If he has useful information, I'm sure he'd share, otherwise there may be use holding back. Should we try to lynch someone, and they make up a claim, he's now in a position to judge it and possibly counter it. Whereas if he or anyone else were to reveal, it makes it far easier for scum to create a plausible false claim. Why should he do this when he has not been pushed to lynch?

But you should already know this. You are either overreaching tunneling town, or scum who pushed too hard on a mislynch and sees the tide going against you. Either way, it's not a good look.
Which parts have I looked past? I addressed the PM based speculation about Drealmer's potential for a role.

I've outlined why I think JMich should be revealing. Heck, I'd take him being proactive about helping town at all, but he hasn't done that either. From here, it looks like he's just getting a pass. He's indicated he had a role, and he almost certainly can't counter claim effectively.

Are his best contributions noting that "The mod-kill probably didn't have a role" and "My observations are easily wrong"? What else indicates that he's town, RW?
Posted May 31, 2017
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Bookwyrm627: snip
Do you even read my posts?
Posted May 31, 2017
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Bookwyrm627: snip
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RWarehall: Do you even read my posts?
Why yes, I did. I've addressed the arguments you make with counter-arguments. Would you care to address my counter arguments themselves, or just say I'm not actually reading your posts?
Posted May 31, 2017
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Sage103082: Second there is something in Jmich respond that makes me believe he is town as well.
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Bookwyrm627: Like what? Because I don't see it.
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JMich: I got a PM asking me about my night action, should I choose to take one. I assume everyone with a role got one, and if you had a chat message from the mod, you would be informed that night had started. Considering drealmer posted 8 hours after nightfall, I don't think he got one.
I wouldn't know if scum got such a message or if they only got a note on their QT thread, nor would I know if scum roles (should there be any) get an additional PM.
And I don't think there were only 2 town roles, since we could be easily rendered powerless by the beginning of D2.
The way he phrased his response.


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RWarehall: What JMich did was more than just guesswork. I did not have a role day 1. I did not receive a PM at the beginning of night phase, so his supposition about Drealmer seems to be likely true. And we are at MyLo and no one has come out to counter-claim.
What would you expect someone to counter-claim with?


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Bookwyrm627: You can't be certain that those with a PR did get a PM about taking their night action.
They do.

I have been keeping quiet because the only information I gained from the night action I took was that scum have the ability to hide their actions. I feel that right now all we are doing is fighting with each other and not working together. I am hoping that this information can be used to help us move forward and work together.

Right now I am not comfortable with bookwyrm. I feel he is fishing and trying to find out all the information he can about roles and the mechanics of it they jump or not.

vote bookywyrm
Posted May 31, 2017
I've explained myself. I've explained specifically how unlikely I find it that scum, not being totally sure a PM was sent, can follow through based on that to talk about Drealmer. I believe that the insight about Drealmer can only realistically come from someone who received said PM and thought, "I bet Drealmer didn't got one of these".

It's one thing to second-guess after the fact that its an easy conclusion to make. I know I didn't think about it and I made nothing out of my lack of a PM.

Why would scum risk themselves on such a hunch? Specifically when...
1) One is not currently pressed to be lynched...
2) One cannot be absolutely sure PRs were sent such a PM.

I have to wonder why you are so hellbent on JMich. It makes me wonder if you are trying to cover for someone. I also don't see why you are so insistent that JMich needs to provide us anything more.

As to whether we are at MyLo or not, given the likelihood of 2 scum and I know my own alignment and I'm town, with flips and random chance, Drealmer is scum 2 out of 6 Or in other words, 2/3rds chance that we are indeed at MyLo. I don't like discounting majority odds.
Posted May 31, 2017
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Sage103082: Right now I am not comfortable with bookwyrm. I feel he is fishing and trying to find out all the information he can about roles and the mechanics of it they jump or not.
Do you see any other purpose in my posting?
Posted May 31, 2017
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GammaEmerald: Who do you think is scum on the Dessimu wagon if anyone? Which votes are you not impressed by on that wagon?
I should start with how I saw Dessimu's wagon. I was at a conference that day and attempted to read/post during a break. I saw both RW and Gamma's vote on Dessi. I also saw Lift's flavor post. I had my post ready to go as a session was starting. I thought I had refreshed in another tab. Either I didn't or was in too big of a hurry. I didn't see Sage's vote or Dessi's final pre-lynch post until after I posted. And obviously, I didn't see Bookwyrm's vote either. I thought I was placing the third vote.

In regard to votes, neither then nor now, do I have an issue with either RW or Gamma's vote. Dessi felt like he was coasting and his one post of analysis seemed weak. I think both votes were a good push on someone who looked scummy. That was my intention with my vote. I believe that was what Sage was doing with her actual third vote.

Bookwyrm voted Dess knowing he was putting him at L-1. I didn't read Dess final pre-lynch post in detail until after I saw the flip. I think I would have given more pause to voting had I read that post first, but I can't be sure. That was the first post where it felt like Dess was really trying. It's hard for me to fault Bookwyrm for that though, when I am reading it after the fact.

I do think scum is on this wagon. But I don't think the way the wagon went down necessarily points to who is scum. More to come.
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussionForum Mafia #48: S.T.A.L.K.E.R. - Return to the Zone(437 posts)(437 posts)
(437 posts)