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pedrovay2003: Okay, so, the question that I think we all have on our minds: Is anyone picking up the Final Fantasy VII Remake? It doesn't have Denuvo, but I'm dying to know if it's DRM-free.
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MarkoH01: If I ever plan on buying a $80 game, please shoot me ;)
Can't help you with your question though.
get the free game and you get a discount coupon, so you could get it for "only" 70
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(ø,ø): Can confirm this. Not only does it require the launcher now, you also have to allow it to use your username, language preferences and linked accounts.

That's a good reminder to always download and backup Epic games as soon as possible. Thank you, Acidule.

Would be nice if it went the other way too. If some of the games requiring the launcher today would be DRM-free in the future, but it's not very likely.
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MarkoH01: Which brings me to another question: Is there even a way to find out if a game got updated on Epic without downloading and comparing files?
It looks like you have to have all games installed all the time and keep track of version changes in Epic Games Launcher. However I am not sure how reliable that version info is. Maybe the tested version should be included in the master games list from the opening post.
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Tokyo_Bunny_8990: Question from a noob with limited knowledge on DRM.
<snip>
Both Steam and Epic occasionally release games without DRM. It looks like neither Steam nor the EGS force devs/publishers to implement their respective DRM schemes. So small-scale devs, in particular, sometimes decide to release their games on the respective stores and opt out of DRM. But Steam and the EGS don't usually advertise DRM-free games as being DRM-free. So if you're specifically looking for DRM-free games, places like GOG and Itch make that easier - but you could still use community-made lists to find those Steam/EGS games that are DRM-free, like the list in this thread.
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pedrovay2003: Okay, so, the question that I think we all have on our minds: Is anyone picking up the Final Fantasy VII Remake? It doesn't have Denuvo, but I'm dying to know if it's DRM-free.
I can confirm that FF7 Remake does require the Epic Games client to even start up. This is even after using the "EpicPortal" commandline.
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Tokyo_Bunny_8990: Question from a noob with limited knowledge on DRM.
<snip>
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Exsurgent: Both Steam and Epic occasionally release games without DRM. It looks like neither Steam nor the EGS force devs/publishers to implement their respective DRM schemes. So small-scale devs, in particular, sometimes decide to release their games on the respective stores and opt out of DRM. But Steam and the EGS don't usually advertise DRM-free games as being DRM-free. So if you're specifically looking for DRM-free games, places like GOG and Itch make that easier - but you could still use community-made lists to find those Steam/EGS games that are DRM-free, like the list in this thread.
Thanks. Sorry, I was hoping to find out if you do buy a game with implemented DRM, what recourse do users have if the store goes down/server issues, etc regarding Epic?

Epic does have some good DRM games, notably Days Gone and Alan Wake. The one Im interested in (Kingdom Hearts), has always online DRM though and I wonder what implications that has regarding my "use" of the game. More severe limits on mods? Unable to continue playing if servers go down or Epic closes?
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Tokyo_Bunny_8990: Thanks. Sorry, I was hoping to find out if you do buy a game with implemented DRM, what recourse do users have if the store goes down/server issues, etc regarding Epic?
<snip>
Oh, sorry, I got sidetracked there :D

I haven't looked at Epic's terms of service in detail, but I'd assume it says the same thing Steam's say: You effectively don't really BUY a game on these stores, you just RENT their services. Which means that if one of these stores go down, you lose access to your DRM'ed games and you (probably) have no legal recourse against the store.

On a practical level, if one of these stores goes down and you try to start a game that normally requires the launcher, the game simply won't run in most cases. For Steam games, you can sometimes get around the launcher requirement by creating a txt file called "steam_appid.txt" which contains the game's Steam app ID. With Epic games, you can try adding the two command line switches which you'll find in the first post in this thread.

Speaking specifically of always-on DRM, íf the store on which you bought your game goes down, you might still be able to play the game, but only if the developer/publisher keeps the servers going. Always-on is typically a sign that the game tries to contact an authentification server before it starts up (to check whether you legally own the game). These servers are usually run by the devs/pubs themselves, so they may be independent of the actual store where you bought the game. Of course, this also goes the other way around: If the EGS/Steam stays open but the authentification servers are taken down, you won't be able to play the game, either.

That being said, there is at least one example of a game that requires always-on, but still runs without it: Hitman tries to reach authentification servers and if it doesn't manage to do so, the game runs but it will prevent you from accessing most of its content.

Ultimately, any game you buy which has DRM carries with it the risk that you might lose access to it if the developer, the publisher or the store you bought it on decides to stop supporting the game (or if they go down). At that point, you're entirely depending on them to patch their game into a state where it can be run without the launcher or an internet connection. Alternatively, you could seek out less legal ways of preserving your game, but then you're reliant on those groups actually "supporting" the game, which might not be the case for less well-known games.

I can't really say anything about Kingdom Hearts specifically, but I'd assume if it has always-on, the game either won't start without an active internet connection or it needs to have an internet connection to authenticate at least once and it might run without requiring a connection afterwards (I believe this system was used in the original Bioshock release, but I'm not sure if this is still a system used for games in 2021/2022). If you want to look into it yourself, I believe the EGS has a refund policy similar to Steam, so you can buy and download the game, cut your internet connection and check whether you can start the game. If you're not OK with the results of your test, you can refund the game as long as you're within the parameters of the EGS' refund policy.

EDIT: Forgot to mention this info: Many games these days are released with strong DRM, such as Denuvo, or with the always-on internet connection requirement, but those are sometimes patched out some time after release. Basically, many DRM schemes that go beyond a simple store launcher requirement are only in place to protect the game during its initial main sales period after release. Once the devs/publishers decide the game no longer makes a lot of money, they might drop their DRM - but that's not a guarantee and even if they do decide to get rid of the DRM, this will be many years after release.
Post edited December 17, 2021 by Exsurgent
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Tokyo_Bunny_8990: Thanks. Sorry, I was hoping to find out if you do buy a game with implemented DRM, what recourse do users have if the store goes down/server issues, etc regarding Epic?
As Exsurgent said, the store's agreement (including Steam's "Subscriber" Agreement) basically say you are agreeing solely to use the store for their "subscriptions" and "services". For Steam, you are agreeing to use the Steam software, server & services, and purchased games are merely an indirect privilege dependent on that service. Once those end, that's it. That a number of Steam / Epic games are unprotected and can be made to run without any client is definitely an unofficial "hack" than anything the stores ever have or will legally guarantee. There's zero legal recourse for any content removal or inability to use "subscribed" content at a later date (whether by the store going out of business, or stuff we've already seen like forced removal of GTA IV soundtracks). Epic's own EULA says:-

"3. Epic may modify, suspend, discontinue, substitute, replace, or limit your access to any aspect of the Software or Services at any time. You acknowledge that your use of the Software or Services does not confer on you any interest, monetary or otherwise, in any aspect or feature of the Software or Services, including but not limited to any in-game rewards, achievements, character levels. You also acknowledge that any character data, game progress, game customization or other data related to your use of the Software or Services may cease to be available to you at any time without notice from Epic, including without limitation after a patch, update, or upgrade is applied by Epic. Epic does not have any maintenance or support obligations with respect to the Software or Services"

"9. Upon any termination, the License will automatically terminate, you may no longer exercise any of the rights granted to you by the License, and you must destroy all copies of the Software in your possession. Except as expressly stated otherwise herein or to the extent required by law, all payments and fees are non-refundable under all circumstances, regardless of whether or not this Agreement has been terminated."

The Steam "Subscriber" Agreement, pretty much says the same, and I wrote a post a while back in another thread debunking the usual "A friend said that Gabe promised that he'd make all Steam games playable" urban myth with the original source of his post (which has long been deleted).

So the bottom line is, the DRM-Free-ness of unprotected Steam / Epic games is to be treated as a temporary bonus that can be removed at any time without compensation, rather than any normal part of their "services" / "subscriptions" to which you are agreeing. And it isn't just DRM or "going out of business" that can do that, When I set this list up, I had a gut feeling it was "peaking" right out of the gate, ie, most early games on Epic worked without Epic Launcher because they weren't hard-coded to use client features (achievements, cloud saves, etc), whereas the more Epic becomes like Steam, the more chance "Epic Online Service" has of breaking stuff, because unlike GOG, neither Epic nor Steam have specific "fallbacks" (the equivalent of Galaxy.dll's in offline installers that are designed to silently handle client API calls in the event the client isn't running). As far as Epic / Steam are concerned, you "should" always be running the client (and use "offline mode"). Anything that works without a client really is to be treated as a disposable bonus unless backed up.
Post edited December 17, 2021 by AB2012
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Tokyo_Bunny_8990: Thanks. Sorry, I was hoping to find out if you do buy a game with implemented DRM, what recourse do users have if the store goes down/server issues, etc regarding Epic?
<snip>
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Exsurgent: Ultimately, any game you buy which has DRM carries with it the risk that you might lose access to it if the developer, the publisher or the store you bought it on decides to stop supporting the game (or if they go down). At that point, you're entirely depending on them to patch their game into a state where it can be run without the launcher or an internet connection. Alternatively, you could seek out less legal ways of preserving your game, but then you're reliant on those groups actually "supporting" the game, which might not be the case for less well-known games.

EDIT: Forgot to mention this info: Many games these days are released with strong DRM, such as Denuvo, or with the always-on internet connection requirement, but those are sometimes patched out some time after release. Basically, many DRM schemes that go beyond a simple store launcher requirement are only in place to protect the game during its initial main sales period after release. Once the devs/publishers decide the game no longer makes a lot of money, they might drop their DRM - but that's not a guarantee and even if they do decide to get rid of the DRM, this will be many years after release.
Thank you for the detailed breakdown. Will probably give Kingdom Hearts a wait since its not essential (already have the games on console and wanted it on PC for prosperity and ability to mod. If DRM makes it unusable, no need to get it).

Honestly really hate the server restriction, especially for single player because I know for multiplayer at least, servers have a limited shelf life. Mad Max servers went down (had to rush to get that trophy) and MGSV (servers are going down in 2022 apparently). Not essential since they only lock off minor content but games like Hitman 2016, Fortnite, or WoW really are "perishable" for lack of a better word. Kind of sad to think about.
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AB2012: So the bottom line is, the DRM-Free-ness of unprotected Steam / Epic games is to be treated as a temporary bonus that can be removed at any time without compensation, rather than any normal part of their "services" / "subscriptions" to which you are agreeing. And it isn't just DRM or "going out of business" that can do that, When I set this list up, I had a gut feeling it was "peaking" right out of the gate, ie, most early games on Epic worked without Epic Launcher because they weren't hard-coded to use client features (achievements, cloud saves, etc), whereas the more Epic becomes like Steam, the more chance "Epic Online Service" has of breaking stuff, because unlike GOG, neither Epic nor Steam have specific "fallbacks" (the equivalent of Galaxy.dll's in offline installers that are designed to silently handle client API calls in the event the client isn't running). As far as Epic / Steam are concerned, you "should" always be running the client (and use "offline mode"). Anything that works without a client really is to be treated as a disposable bonus unless backed up.
Thanks for the detailed breakdown. Sorry for the late reply, went through and read through the thread about what consists of proper back ups as well and the discussion regarding Steam and Gabe's promise (TM). Games going fully digital was something I was definitely against on console and that nightmare scenario of all games being streamed with complete removal of ownership seems to be starting with Gamepass. You can still buy games at a heavy discount through gamepass but those games can come and go.
Post edited December 17, 2021 by Tokyo_Bunny_8990
Neon Abyss works without the Epic Games launcher with the -EpicPortal command line switch.
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AB2012: "9. you must destroy all copies of the Software in your possession."
Cast it into the fire, Isildur!
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AB2012: "9. you must destroy all copies of the Software in your possession."
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Exsurgent: Cast it into the fire, Isildur!
Have a +1 mate!!!!!
Btw. Remnant: From The Ashes is currently free on EGS.
According to PCGW the singleplayer is drm-free, but not the DLCs (latter info should be added to the spreadsheat)

I've also added my findings on Alien Isolation to PCGW. Maybe that info should also be added to the spreadsheat, AB2012.
Post edited December 18, 2021 by russellskanne
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AB2012: "9.Upon any termination, the License will automatically terminate, you may no longer exercise any of the rights granted to you by the License, and you must destroy all copies of the Software in your possession.
Are they delusional? How do they even plan to control this? Breakimng in our homes and doing a search to see if we still have it stored anywhere?

(Cool - finally I managed to get my rep under 4140 - busy downvote trolls today ... still cowards but at least busy)
Post edited December 19, 2021 by MarkoH01
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MarkoH01: Are they delusional? How do they even plan to control this? Breakimng in our homes and doing a search to see if we still have it stored anywhere?
There's no practical way they can control already downloaded DRM-Free games. I think it's just the usual "Anything that touches our glorious client is under our control now and forever" attitude that a lot of stores wanting to be "platforms" have. GOG is sadly the exception in providing not just offline installers, but actually having it written in their User Agreement that your games are "your content" to use long after the store shuts down without the word "subscription" appearing even once.

As for Epic Games and DRM-Free, I feel that it's mostly been a "happy accident", ie, they weren't made to be intentionally DRM-Free, they just are that way naturally because Epic didn't default to using an equivalent of Steamworks (for both DRM and online services). Where that will end up over the next few years as Epic Online Services takes more of a hold, I really don't know.
Post edited December 19, 2021 by AB2012
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AB2012: There's no practical way they can control already downloaded DRM-Free games. I think it's just the usual "Anything that touches our glorious client is under our control now and forever" attitude that a lot of stores wanting to be "platforms" have. GOG is sadly the exception in providing not just offline installers, but actually having it written in their User Agreement that your games are "your content" to use long after the store shuts down without the word "subscription" appearing even once.
It might be that GOG does not use the word "subscription" but legally we still just get a license to use. The software is not ours at all even though the way GOG is handling it you can use it as if it would be ours.