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"China" returned 52 posts
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low rated
I am profoundly sad that people are blaming GOG. I'd expect better understanding of how the world works from adults - alas, it seems YA literature causes permanent brain damage. I've seen absurd posts suggesting it would've sufficed for GOG to restrict the game in China, as if it's the matter of the law.

Having been removed from Steam almost two years ago, Devotion is currently not for sale anywhere. It was briefly - for one week - available in Taiwan as a limited physical edition.

Why?

There are many companies which don't do business in China, don't have deals with Epic and such, and have no market share to lose - why hasn't the game found a distributor in any of those in almost two years?

Why can't they sell it from their own website, worldwide except China?

Why didn't some freeze peaches techbro set up a store for them and capitalized on the good publicity?

The reason is that, to sell it, they actually need to get paid.

The messages from "concerned gamers" weren't coming from Winnie or Epic, they were coming from Visa and Mastercard. What GOG would've had to give up for trying to sell Devotion isn't the Chinese market or the Epic deal, it's the existence of the site itself.

And Red Candle still wouldn't have gotten the money.

The sad fact is there's no domestic right to banking services even in countries which pride themselves on being bastions of freedom, not to mention internationally. There's no law, for example, that American banks need to offer banking services to all law-abiding Americans. They kick you off and you're unpersoned, unable to participate in the economy, worse than a felon.

Censorship works because people can't start their own businesses to cover gaps in the market, because they can't get paid. This is where the buck stops. This is who you have to fight, not some Polish nerds in a badly heated office.

Thank you and have a good day.
high rated
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Vendor-Lazarus: ...
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toxicTom: You forget someone: A developer who made fun of a leader (and in the source files, also his mother) of a totalitarian country with a leader-cult and then made someone else sell it there. They completely burned their own publisher over a silly joke.

Imagine I hid a Mohammed caricature in my game - artistic freedom, right? - and then asked you to publish it in Saudi Arabia...
You do know that Saudi-Arabia/China isn't the world right?
They can decide in their own country if they want the game sold there.
Like Germany does..which you should know.
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Vendor-Lazarus: You do know that Saudi-Arabia/China isn't the world right?
They can decide in their own country if they want the game sold there.
Like Germany does..which you should know.
You haven't been following the discussion, right?

Try reading and understanding this: https://www.theguardian.com/games/2020/dec/17/taiwanese-horror-game-pulled-from-sale-again-after-backlash-in-china

Essentially, pissing off China means being excluded from a market with one billion people. As someone pointed out, Chinese is now the most used language on Steam. That's how huge this is. If the prices weren't lower, it would be more lucrative for Steam to sell only in China than in the rest of the world, if they had to choose. And the day when this will be so is not far off.

And for GOG/CD Projekt it's about this market, especially with the CP2077 release.

China is not some rural country living off memories of grandeur any more, it's a high-tech ultra-capitalist (state controlled) country, and the biggest consumer market in the world.
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toxicTom: China is not some rural country living off memories of grandeur any more, it's a high-tech ultra-capitalist (state controlled) country, and the biggest consumer market in the world.
You wish. The place is a dump with great PR.

That documentary "China Hustle" is not even the tip of the Iceberg. People should make an effort to go see for themselves (kind of hard now that Xi Jing Poh decided to go back to closing the economy and jailing successful people).
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Vendor-Lazarus: You do know that Saudi-Arabia/China isn't the world right?
They can decide in their own country if they want the game sold there.
Like Germany does..which you should know.
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toxicTom: You haven't been following the discussion, right?

Try reading and understanding this: https://www.theguardian.com/games/2020/dec/17/taiwanese-horror-game-pulled-from-sale-again-after-backlash-in-china

Essentially, pissing off China means being excluded from a market with one billion people. As someone pointed out, Chinese is now the most used language on Steam. That's how huge this is. If the prices weren't lower, it would be more lucrative for Steam to sell only in China than in the rest of the world, if they had to choose. And the day when this will be so is not far off.

And for GOG/CD Projekt it's about this market, especially with the CP2077 release.

China is not some rural country living off memories of grandeur any more, it's a high-tech ultra-capitalist (state controlled) country, and the biggest consumer market in the world.
Imagine linking to fake news outlets and thinking they're not full of angled and biased propaganda...

I don't care how much money you can make from China..Would you sell iron to terrorists bent on wiping you out?
Same thing. Principles matter. China is a Communist Authoritarian state. Nobody should be trading with them.
low rated
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Vendor-Lazarus: You do know that Saudi-Arabia/China isn't the world right?
They can decide in their own country if they want the game sold there.
Like Germany does..which you should know.
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toxicTom: You haven't been following the discussion, right?

Try reading and understanding this: https://www.theguardian.com/games/2020/dec/17/taiwanese-horror-game-pulled-from-sale-again-after-backlash-in-china

Essentially, pissing off China means being excluded from a market with one billion people. As someone pointed out, Chinese is now the most used language on Steam. That's how huge this is. If the prices weren't lower, it would be more lucrative for Steam to sell only in China than in the rest of the world, if they had to choose. And the day when this will be so is not far off.

And for GOG/CD Projekt it's about this market, especially with the CP2077 release.

China is not some rural country living off memories of grandeur any more, it's a high-tech ultra-capitalist (state controlled) country, and the biggest consumer market in the world.
Exactly, America has been a sinking ship for a while now, besides they have their own forms of censorship in games such as enforcing social propaganda on everyone. Going on about how great American democracy is (despite the sideshow that was the 2020 election.) And shoving hardcore capitalist views down everyone's throats.
Post edited December 18, 2020 by David9855
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Starmaker: I am profoundly sad that people are blaming GOG. I'd expect better understanding of how the world works from adults - alas, it seems YA literature causes permanent brain damage. I've seen absurd posts suggesting it would've sufficed for GOG to restrict the game in China, as if it's the matter of the law.

Having been removed from Steam almost two years ago, Devotion is currently not for sale anywhere. It was briefly - for one week - available in Taiwan as a limited physical edition.

Why?

There are many companies which don't do business in China, don't have deals with Epic and such, and have no market share to lose - why hasn't the game found a distributor in any of those in almost two years?

Why can't they sell it from their own website, worldwide except China?

Why didn't some freeze peaches techbro set up a store for them and capitalized on the good publicity?

The reason is that, to sell it, they actually need to get paid.

The messages from "concerned gamers" weren't coming from Winnie or Epic, they were coming from Visa and Mastercard. What GOG would've had to give up for trying to sell Devotion isn't the Chinese market or the Epic deal, it's the existence of the site itself.

And Red Candle still wouldn't have gotten the money.

The sad fact is there's no domestic right to banking services even in countries which pride themselves on being bastions of freedom, not to mention internationally. There's no law, for example, that American banks need to offer banking services to all law-abiding Americans. They kick you off and you're unpersoned, unable to participate in the economy, worse than a felon.

Censorship works because people can't start their own businesses to cover gaps in the market, because they can't get paid. This is where the buck stops. This is who you have to fight, not some Polish nerds in a badly heated office.

Thank you and have a good day.
Upon introspection you have valid points here. I hope you have a good day as well.
high rated
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toxicTom: You haven't been following the discussion, right?

Try reading and understanding this: https://www.theguardian.com/games/2020/dec/17/taiwanese-horror-game-pulled-from-sale-again-after-backlash-in-china

Essentially, pissing off China means being excluded from a market with one billion people. As someone pointed out, Chinese is now the most used language on Steam. That's how huge this is. If the prices weren't lower, it would be more lucrative for Steam to sell only in China than in the rest of the world, if they had to choose. And the day when this will be so is not far off.

And for GOG/CD Projekt it's about this market, especially with the CP2077 release.

China is not some rural country living off memories of grandeur any more, it's a high-tech ultra-capitalist (state controlled) country, and the biggest consumer market in the world.
First of all. You are right.

However if a piece of art gets censored world wide because of one country which opposes it we (as is the western civilization) are seriously in deep trouble.
Also Devotion is not a political game (well it kind of is, but not about China) apart from the removed memes. The developers only get harrassed because they are based in Taiwan.

And it's especially disappointing by a company from a former communist authoritarian country. They should know better where this road is heading. But money is obviously worth more to them than morals.
This also doesn't gel to well with the "we're the customer-friendly good guys" image they want to have. Also the way they cancelled the release was just disgraceful. If they didn't lie straight to their customers face I would have been more understanding. They could have been honest by saying "wen don't want to lose the Chinese market", but chose to tell a really obvious lie.
In the past few years I've tried to buy most of my games on GOG. I'm going to rethink my stance on this.

I for my part really wanted to play Devotion ever since I saw Super Eyepatch Wolf's video on it. And I've been really bummed out when I saw it's nowhere for sale. The way GOG handled this was really a gut punch.
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toxicTom: That happens all the time. Why do you think many WW2 games don't have any Swastikas in them? Because Germany is a big market, and until recently those were forbidden in games.
Sorry, but your comparison doesn't work. The Wolfenstein games still had Swastikas in other countries. Germany did not ban Steam as a whole because they sold uncensored versions.

Swastikas were also were not forbidden in art in Germany - which the Kulturrat admitted video games are. But I think you probably knew this, but kept it simple for the sake of the argument.

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toxicTom: No, they can't say that, read the Guardian article again. With that they'd admit they ARE in the Chinese market - without a license. Right now they can just claim the Chinese pages are for the expats - there are millions of those.
I've read the article, but I frankly don't care. Everyone knows they are operating in china.
Still I don't want to be lied to my face by a company pretending to be friendly.

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toxicTom: Just like many stores in the past with a German page claimed "only for Austria" so they wouldn't get blacklisted from Germany.
I need sources/proof for that. I've bought quite a lot of game which were on the index at the time.
Selling the banned games in Germany was illegal. However sending them to Germany never was illegal and no shops ever got blacklisted for selling banned games to Germany.

I get that. But I frankly don't care or have to care. I don't want to be lied to this
Post edited December 18, 2020 by Tenobok
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Tenobok: Sorry, but your comparison doesn't work. The Wolfenstein games still had Swastikas in other countries. Germany did not ban Steam as a whole because they sold uncensored versions.
It's about the principle of censoring art, sacrificing it for money. The comparison is solid. It happens all the time. The scale of this is different of course. With Wolfenstein is was butchering a game to make it sellable in Germany, with Devotion it's about not publishing a game to keep making money (with other games) in China. Art loses, money wins.
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Tenobok: Sorry, but your comparison doesn't work. The Wolfenstein games still had Swastikas in other countries. Germany did not ban Steam as a whole because they sold uncensored versions.
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toxicTom: It's about the principle of censoring art, sacrificing it for money. The comparison is solid. It happens all the time. The scale of this is different of course. With Wolfenstein is was butchering a game to make it sellable in Germany, with Devotion it's about not publishing a game to keep making money (with other games) in China. Art loses, money wins.
I think, though, that one hill is more important than the other when choosing which to die on. If it's only censored for germany, not me, then it's up to german citizens to do something about the censorship. But china's calling the whole world, not just china. This scale is unprecedented, and i think this simply comes down to "my house is my house, your house is your house, and everything is fine as long as what happens in my house stays in my house, and what happens in your house stays in your house." This pact has been broken.

EDIT: To be clear, this is, in effect, an ideological invasion of territory.
Post edited December 18, 2020 by kohlrak
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Tenobok: Unfortunately our values of pluralism and democracy also lose.
Against money? Almost always. Just look at what is promised before a vote, and what is done afterwards.

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kohlrak: But china's calling the whole world, not just china.
China is pulling the west around the ring on a chain through the nose... that chain is called greed, plain and simple.
But it's too late to change that.
If you do business with them, you have to follow their rules.
If you don't do business with them, someone else will, and you lose the race.

And frankly, it's not China's fault. Any entity with that amount of power would use it. When I think what some of the western big companies pulled off, ... there simply are no "good guys" that far up.
Post edited December 18, 2020 by toxicTom
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Tenobok: Unfortunately our values of pluralism and democracy also lose.
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toxicTom: Against money? Almost always. Just look at what is promised before a vote, and what is done afterwards.

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kohlrak: But china's calling the whole world, not just china.
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toxicTom: China is pulling the west around the ring on a chain through the nose... that chain is called greed, plain and simple.
But it's too late to change that.
If you do business with them, you have to follow their rules.
If you don't do business with them, someone else will, and you lose the race.

And frankly, it's not China's fault. Any entity with that amount of power would use it. When I think what some of the western big companies pulled off, ... there simply are no "good guys" that far up.
Unless you do something that damages the greed. I'm not saying it's easy, but if someone more talented than me, who actually cared, got a team together and made an overnight success and gave it away anonymously for free, so that funding denials and the like would not be able to pull weight, you'd see massive damage done to china just as quickly. The question is, how do you make the next minecraft while simultaneously making it as offensive to china as possible while still family friendly to everyone else. More or less, that's precisely the game china's playing with tiktok, so our countries are obviously prone to the tactic.
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kohlrak: I heard before they were offering to be platforms (intentionally hosting non-pornographic content) for people unfairly demonitized on youtube. This is a hugely sad turn of events.
Thankfully bitchute is now taking up the slack....as well as several other sites.

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toxicTom: Essentially, pissing off China means being excluded from a market with one billion people.
1. They're not all game buyers.
2. There are things called v-p-n.
Post edited December 18, 2020 by GamezRanker
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thegreyshadow: The only two things that irk me about the whole shebang are:

1. That the ones calling for the delisting were "gamers". Seriously?
2. The radio silence.

EDIT: OK, I got it, it may have to do with the almighty buck. But why blame it on "gamers" ?? Couldn't they just say something in marketspeak akin to "a reevaluation of current market conditions showed us that listing the game would not be in the best interest for our ecosystem..." Why doing this was and is so difficult?
Yeah... blame legal or technical problems... My guess is people at GOG were overwhelmed by the situation - they're all still in home office and Corona lockdown, so communication is harder.

Here's how I imagine this happened:

1) Someone from the GOG curation team gets the game handed with a note "Check this out, might be up your alley". Said person has probably never heard about the game, but well a quick Google search says it has won several awards... wait - controvery in China, we'll just block it, all fine. Curator plays the game and likes it a lot. Calls his girlfriend and they have a nice weekend.

Time passes.

2) Curator greenlits the game to the guy who manages release schedule: "We'll bring this, great, award-winning game, even an exclusive, it's not on Steam!! Maybe leave out China". The Schedule guy (who hasn't ever heard of the game) picks a date and sends the current release list to the PR girl. Goes and gets some food for his two children for lunch.

Time passes.

3) PR girl (who has never heard of the game) looks at the release list what's next. Announces the release on Twitter, then helps her child with homework...

A few minutes later angry emails by Chinese gamers (or "gamers") start to pile of at GOG's front door. Email guy is disturbed by the loud beeping and tells his boyfriend to wait, to check what's wrong. Gets pale, calls his boss "We have a situation here!"

4) Boss escalates this to their boss - some GOG CEO - who also pales with an exclamation "China is mad? Fuck!" - numbers and figures run through is head, looming doom of being excluded from the Chinese market. "Stop the release! Now!" he screams into the phone.

5) Second level boss calls PR girl, who was just between maths and Polish, and tells her to pull the release announcement. "I can't." She says, "Then think of something". Flabbergasted, and with maths and Polish still sticking in her mind, she clings to the only info she got "some gamers don't want the release". Post message. Apocalypse follows.

Ok that's all made up, but that's how things happen in real life, I've seen it working this way really often. Shit like that simply happens.