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"China" returned 29 posts
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The literal only reason so many signed that is because they're looking for reasons to whine. Even a child would be able to understand why they can't sell the game. I guarantee you that probably ~2% of those signatures would actually buy the game if GOG ended up reversing that decision.

And no one give me the "simp for China" argument. I despise the CCP, though I love Chinese history and I pity the people to have to suffer such negligent, evil governance. It's just common sense, though: thanks to the CCP's ridiculousness, GOG was forced to choose between selling a game that has a rather small potential playerbase or risk losing out on an entire MARKET. Would it be awesome if GOG were able to stand up to the tyranny? Absolutely, but that's not how business works. People complaining about this really need to have a reality check because, as I said, it doesn't take a genius to understand why they did what they did...
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Devotion is on sale DRM-free on the Developer site https://shop.redcandlegames.com/

From Wikipedia: /wiki/Devotion _ (video_game) [for better understanding of what has happened]
"Controversy
On February 21, 2019, two days after the game's release, players discovered a fulu talisman decorating a wall in the game contained the words "Xi Jinping Winnie the Pooh" (Chinese: 習近平小熊維尼) in Chinese seal script, referencing a recent Chinese internet meme that compared the Chinese general secretary to the Disney character. Also on the talisman were the transcribed words "ní ma bā qì" (呢嘛叭唭), which sounds similar to "nǐ mā bā qī" (你媽八七) in Mandarin. "你媽" means "your mother (is a)"; and "八七" (peh tshit) sounds similar to "白痴" (pe̍h-tshi, means "moron") in Taiwanese Hokkien. Taken together, this was interpreted by Chinese gamers as an insult to the Chinese leader. As a result, Devotion was heavily review bombed by Chinese gamers on Steam, and the game went from having "Overwhelmingly Positive" reviews overall to being "Mostly Negative".[19] Red Candle Games responded by patching out the offending art material, replacing it with a talisman that reads "Happy New Year" (恭賀新禧), explaining that the original talisman was a placeholder that was supposed to be replaced, and apologizing for the oversight. Nevertheless, other aspects of the game were analyzed as insults to China, leading to the game being removed from Steam in China on February 23. Publishers Indievent and Winking Skywalker cut ties with Red Candle Games, with Red Candle Games being liable for their losses as a result of the controversy.[20] On February 25, Red Candle removed the game from Steam globally to fix technical issues, as well as to confirm that no other hidden messages remain.[21]

Taiwan's Vice Premier Chen Chi-mai spoke out in defense of the game regarding the "Easter egg", saying: "Only in countries with democracy and freedom can creation be free from restrictions." Red Candle's Sina Weibo account remains blocked, and posts containing the hashtag #Devotion, which had hundreds of millions of views before the controversy, were hidden by Chinese censors.[1] The episode has raised concerns about the future of the Steam platform in China, which did not gain official approval to operate there but remains accessible with up to 30 million users from China.[1]

In July 2019, the Chinese government revoked the license of Indievent. The official statement from the government stated that the revoking was due to violating relevant laws.[22] Red Candle Games released an apology later in the month stating that they have no plans to re-release Devotion in the near term in order "to prevent unnecessary misconception", but would reconsider re-releasing the game in the future if "the public would be willing to view this game rationally".[23]

In June 2020, Red Candle announced that it would begin running pre-orders for a physical edition of the game, available only in Taiwan from June 8 to 15.[24]

On December 16, 2020, Red Candle Games and GOG.com announced that the game would be available on GOG's store on December 18. However, a few hours later, GOG issued a statement on Twitter[25] that "after receiving many messages from gamers," they had decided not to move forward with the release.[26] The statement rapidly garnered thousands of comments and retweets, the majority of which came from fans who were angered to see the store cancelling the release.[27]

By March 2021, Red Candle Games opened their own digital storefront to sell Devotion as well as their prior game Detention and future games. The games were offered as DRM-free versions. A macOS version was released alongside this.[28][29] "
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borisburke: I'm supporting GOG. They clearly decide to list or withhold a game based upon gamer requests. 9050 gamers want it, so more than that number must have asked GOG to not list it. Simple. GOG wouldn't lie to us, would it?
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my name is capitayn catte: Have you any idea how big the Chinese game market is?

I'm not defending the PRC regime, but a large number of Chinese citizens do. It's entirely plausible that GOG's announcement attracted a lot of negative attention from them. Whether they are "gamers" or GOG customers isn't something that's easy to know, but I can very easily believe that they were bombarded with messages.
Would transparency be such a bad thing? I'd like to see some of those messages, yet we have nothing besides words from GOG's PR.
Also, I wonder what kind of percentage of the market GOG holds in Asia, let alone China. So I'm not buying this theory. See, when there is a lack of transparency all we can do is speculate.
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JakobFel: The literal only reason so many signed that is because they're looking for reasons to whine. Even a child would be able to understand why they can't sell the game. I guarantee you that probably ~2% of those signatures would actually buy the game if GOG ended up reversing that decision.

And no one give me the "simp for China" argument. I despise the CCP, though I love Chinese history and I pity the people to have to suffer such negligent, evil governance. It's just common sense, though: thanks to the CCP's ridiculousness, GOG was forced to choose between selling a game that has a rather small potential playerbase or risk losing out on an entire MARKET. Would it be awesome if GOG were able to stand up to the tyranny? Absolutely, but that's not how business works. People complaining about this really need to have a reality check because, as I said, it doesn't take a genius to understand why they did what they did...
While I agree with a good part of your post (including the contempt for the CCP while respecting and wishing the best for the chinese people), you forgot to touch a very important point that pissed a lot of us off in this whole display of Gog messing up.

I understand Gog backpedaling on their contract with Red Candle Games. As much as it would be better if the game could see the light of day here, the risk (after Gog foolishly announced the game's release on Weibo) was high enough that canceling was probably their less bad option by then. My problem is with their insulting way of pushing the blame on us, the customers, for the decision. With that tweet being such a painfully obvious lie they also made it clear that they must think we are incredibly stupid too.

I may not like their decision, but I can see why they took it. But they managed to find the worst possible way to communicate it to us and have only doubled down since then. Combining that with other unrelated issues (like CP2077's DRMed content) they have pushed several formerly faithful customers like me into boycotting them and calling them out on every possible BS.
Post edited June 09, 2021 by joppo
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my name is capitayn catte: Have you any idea how big the Chinese game market is?

I'm not defending the PRC regime, but a large number of Chinese citizens do. It's entirely plausible that GOG's announcement attracted a lot of negative attention from them. Whether they are "gamers" or GOG customers isn't something that's easy to know, but I can very easily believe that they were bombarded with messages.
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patrikc: Would transparency be such a bad thing? I'd like to see some of those messages, yet we have nothing besides words from GOG's PR.
Also, I wonder what kind of percentage of the market GOG holds in Asia, let alone China. So I'm not buying this theory. See, when there is a lack of transparency all we can do is speculate.
When has GOG ever been transparent about anything? Why would you expect them to start now?

As for believing them, the alternative is that they're lying. Why would they lie about it? What exactly would that achieve (other than annoying some of their customers)?


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joppo: My problem is with their insulting way of pushing the blame on us, the customers, for the decision. With that tweet being such a painfully obvious lie they also made it clear that they must think we are incredibly stupid too.
I don't see how you read their tweet as putting the blame on us specifically, nor do I see how it's obviously a lie.

"Many gamers" includes the Chinese market and it's a huge market, so I don't really see what about the tweet is untrue.
Post edited June 09, 2021 by my name is capitayn catte
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patrikc: Also, I wonder what kind of percentage of the market GOG holds in Asia, let alone China. So I'm not buying this theory. See, when there is a lack of transparency all we can do is speculate.
A lot of clues are found in their 2020 Board Report.

- p.48: China is 25% of global market share in revenue. 23% is the rest of Asia, so China is 52% of Asian market. Meanwhile, US represents 24% of global market share. In a separate source, PC gaming in China's revenue decreased 4.9% from 2019 to 2020, but PC gamers grew 1.4% with slow and steady CAGR of 0.6%.

- p.52: CDP is promoting GWENT in China.

- p.56-57: 73% CP2077 sold through digital distribution. 20.2% total copies sold in Asia. 10% PC copies sold on GOG.com. Linear scaling says 10.5% copies sold in China and 0.3% of total copies sold for Chinese GOG users.

- p.59: Witcher 3 sold 24.7% copies in Asia. 12.8% sold in China by linear scaling.

- p.72: China is 3% of GOG's market share.

- p.87: specifically mentions games for closed platforms needs certification from a certifier citing China as an example. CDP notes how regulations and laws affecting their partners in China are a significant business risk and can delay or terminate their contracts to impact their revenues. Their business solution is to cooperate with "local partners" familiar with these laws to secure certification.
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JakobFel: And no one give me the "simp for China" argument. I despise the CCP, though I love Chinese history and I pity the people to have to suffer such negligent, evil governance. It's just common sense, though: thanks to the CCP's ridiculousness, GOG was forced to choose between selling a game that has a rather small potential playerbase or risk losing out on an entire MARKET.
Absolutely agree.

[Speculation] CDP executives threw GOG and Red Candle under the bus to protect their CP2077, Witcher 3, GWENT, and other future IPs' revenue in China. Similar to how some people here can't differentiate between CDPR and GOG, it's also likely some Chinese gamers can't tell the difference either and would've boycotted their IPs if GOG published Devotion.

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joppo: My problem is with their insulting way of pushing the blame on us, the customers, for the decision.
It's pretty clear "many messages from gamers" referred either directly to Chinese gamers here and not Western gamers. Disingenuous to say only "gamers" from CDP, but singling out "Chinese gamers" would've been another risky controversy itself. (If you were a CDP exec, would you have risked your seven-figure job when the board can fire you for causing two controversies in a row?) And while not the exact same demographics, it's easy to see how effective Chinese boycotts are on foreign companies capitalizing from their markets. For example, Dolce and Gabbana's Asian market contracted by 12% back in their 2019 earnings after their racist ads controversy. Not the exact same as offending an entire people versus a head of state, but similar.

Yeah, the Chinese government and their diehard patriots need to grow thicker skin if they want to be taken seriously in global dialogue. But the depiction of GOG being in bed with the CCP isn't exactly accurate either. If a global business relies on the Chinese market directly for revenue, then this appears to be a strictly business decision to me.

EDIT: misquoted, thanks joppo.
Post edited June 09, 2021 by Canuck_Cat
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joppo: My problem is with their insulting way of pushing the blame on us, the customers, for the decision. With that tweet being such a painfully obvious lie they also made it clear that they must think we are incredibly stupid too.
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my name is capitayn catte: I don't see how you read their tweet as putting the blame on us specifically, nor do I see how it's obviously a lie.

"Many gamers" includes the Chinese market and it's a huge market, so I don't really see what about the tweet is untrue.
Let's imagine they told the truth. This means that Gog received A LOT of messages in just a matter of hours from their chinese customers. (Let's not beat around the bush, the only people who could have had a reason to request that game release to be canceled were from China.) Those chinese customers who currently make up only 2%* of Gog customers somehow organized themselves in a matter of hours to mass message Gog? Because it took Gog just a few, maybe 6 hours to issue the controversial lie-... errr, I mean tweet. You should also take it into account that those thousands of messages must have arrived long before the 6 hours mark because Gog's directors would need some time to panic and run around the building like headless chickens before finally deciding that Devotion shouldn't be released anymore.

* (I tried to find the source for this number but couldn't. I thought it was in the "Check these facts and numbers about Gog" thread, but I was mistaken. I still remember seeing it here. Maybe in the board report Canuck_Cat linked? I don't dare open it as there have been some firewalling of gaming media in my office recently)

Or maybe a lot of those messages do not come from Gog customers but from other chinese sources? In that case how does Gog knows if any of those massages came from a gamer? Did they attach receipts of game purchases and personal high score screenshots to their raging demand emails? Well, how sad it would be if Gog capitulated to a plain regular angry mob of CCP supporters. But either way Gog decided to call them "gamers".

It also defies credibility how fast Gog reacted from messages of supposed customers. We're talking about the moment when their support team was at their worst, swamped in refund requests, yet they miraculously hear all those complaints and communicate their bosses in an incredibly expedite fashion that is completely different from everything we know of Gog in recent years and particularly at that moment. How come? I could believe in several of those chinese customers sending messages to Gog asking them to reconsider it, but I can't believe that they would even be able to do it in time, much less be heard.

So yes, I'm calling it insulting us and putting the blame on their customers because they don't dare say it was the threats of chinese sycophants (understandable), but also want the coward way of saying it's not their fault.

"It was not the CCP shills, it was you the gamers, our customers, that demanded it". Yeah right.

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joppo: And no one give me the "simp for China" argument. I despise the CCP, though I love Chinese history and I pity the people to have to suffer such negligent, evil governance. It's just common sense, though: thanks to the CCP's ridiculousness, GOG was forced to choose between selling a game that has a rather small potential playerbase or risk losing out on an entire MARKET.
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Canuck_Cat: Absolutely agree.
TBF, you misquoted me. JakobFel said that. But I also agree with the part selected.

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joppo: My problem is with their insulting way of pushing the blame on us, the customers, for the decision.
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Canuck_Cat: Disingenuous to say only "gamers" from CDP, but singling out "Chinese gamers" would've been another risky controversy itself.
Indeed. But they could just say that after some extra reviews they realized that publishing the game would lead to risks they were not ready to take (or something like that) and leave it at that. There was no avoiding some blowback of course, but it would have been a hundred times better.
Post edited June 09, 2021 by joppo
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JakobFel: The literal only reason so many signed that is because they're looking for reasons to whine. Even a child would be able to understand why they can't sell the game. I guarantee you that probably ~2% of those signatures would actually buy the game if GOG ended up reversing that decision.

And no one give me the "simp for China" argument. I despise the CCP, though I love Chinese history and I pity the people to have to suffer such negligent, evil governance. It's just common sense, though: thanks to the CCP's ridiculousness, GOG was forced to choose between selling a game that has a rather small potential playerbase or risk losing out on an entire MARKET. Would it be awesome if GOG were able to stand up to the tyranny? Absolutely, but that's not how business works. People complaining about this really need to have a reality check because, as I said, it doesn't take a genius to understand why they did what they did...
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joppo: While I agree with a good part of your post (including the contempt for the CCP while respecting and wishing the best for the chinese people), you forgot to touch a very important point that pissed a lot of us off in this whole display of Gog messing up.

I understand Gog backpedaling on their contract with Red Candle Games. As much as it would be better if the game could see the light of day here, the risk (after Gog foolishly announced the game's release on Weibo) was high enough that canceling was probably their less bad option by then. My problem is with their insulting way of pushing the blame on us, the customers, for the decision. With that tweet being such a painfully obvious lie they also made it clear that they must think we are incredibly stupid too.

I may not like their decision, but I can see why they took it. But they managed to find the worst possible way to communicate it to us and have only doubled down since then. Combining that with other unrelated issues (like CP2077's DRMed content) they have pushed several formerly faithful customers like me into boycotting them and calling them out on every possible BS.
I don't think they were blaming the players, I feel like you may have mistaken their statement for something they didn't actually say. I mean, on Steam, the game DID get review-bombed and thus, it would definitely look like a mob of players were the reason.
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Ancient-Red-Dragon: I'm all in favor of bashing GOG over their lies about "many messages from gamers" in the Devotion scandal.

However, there's no need for a new thread on the topic when dozens of other ones already exist on this board, any one of which you could have posted in rather than make a new thread here.
You're right. I'm new to this discussion and failed to do my research. However, now that we are here...

Look up the chinese social credit system. Citizens carry a permanent record of past behaviour that's condensed into a single number, a score. It's supposed to be your 'trustworthiness' score. You get points added or subtracted when you do something the Party likes or dislikes. EG: Reading an unauthorised news website loses points. Posting complaints about games that might upset the Party gains points. It's a little like the Rep score they have here on this forum, except the points are only awarded by the state.

If your score falls too far, you will find yourself restricted from many things. Travel, Schools, Jobs, the list is getting longer all the time. It's social engineering at its dystopian worst. (Black Mirror, eat your heart out.)

It's perfectly possible that GOG received 10000 complaints in two hours from all over china.

I'm more than happy to give GOG the benefit of the doubt. But until GOG weighs in, we'll just have to speculate.
"Reports in 2019 indicated that 23 million people have been blacklisted from travelling by plane or train due to low social credit scores" <--- Two years ago.

"[i]score-lowering actions include:

An individual not visiting their parents on a frequent basis
Jaywalking
Walking a dog without putting it on a leash
Smoking in a non-smoking zone
Cheating in online videogames[/i]
"

https://nhglobalpartners.com/china-social-credit-system-explained/

It's not just your own score that effects you, but also the scores of family and friends. (Yep, hang out with the 'wrong' friends and get stuffed by the government, potentially for the rest of your life.)
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JakobFel: The literal only reason so many signed that is because they're looking for reasons to whine.
Or maybe some of them feel they have a legitimate complaint and want to express such?
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JakobFel: It's just common sense, though: thanks to the CCP's ridiculousness, GOG was forced to choose between selling a game that has a rather small potential playerbase or risk losing out on an entire MARKET.
An entire market that provides GOG less than 5% of it's revenue.

Btw, that's all of Asia providing that share.....china's chare of that 5% is likely even less.

And no, GOG wouldn't be cut out of the market....there's things called v-p-n which many chinese/etc can(and do often) use to "temporarily move to another country" so they can buy games/etc.
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JakobFel: Would it be awesome if GOG were able to stand up to the tyranny? Absolutely, but that's not how business works. People complaining about this really need to have a reality check because, as I said, it doesn't take a genius to understand why they did what they did...
"All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men/women to do nothing"

At some point, people/companies have to decide...what's more important: the goods/services/markets of places like china, or their integrity

-
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Ancient-Red-Dragon: However, there's no need for a new thread on the topic when dozens of other ones already exist on this board, any one of which you could have posted in rather than make a new thread here.
And have GOG or someone else complain about necroposting?
(I agree an old thread should've been bumped, but we all know GOG/goggers would've most likely complained about that)
Post edited June 10, 2021 by GamezRanker
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my name is capitayn catte: Have you any idea how big the Chinese game market is?
It's under 5%(the share of GOG's sales for Asia is 5%, with China likely being less than that).

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my name is capitayn catte: "Many gamers" includes the Chinese market and it's a huge market, so I don't really see what about the tweet is untrue.
Even if there were really were many gamers with legitimate criticisms/complaints about GOG selling Devotion, why have the many gamers who voiced criticisms against GOG's decision(to not sell the game) seemingly not been taken into consideration by GOG?

9k+ wishlist votes, several threads on the matter, and yet GOG neither changes course nor says much of anything on the matter
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JakobFel: GOG was forced
No, they really weren't and to me, the latest stuff happening here, makes me wonder if that's just the ideology of the people behind gog:
- Caving in to China
- Removing a game because they bitched about it
- Giving away Tonight we Riot for free, a despicable pro-communism, pro left propaganda piece of shit

How important is China to gog anyway? Do [modded] really buy ancient DOS or niche indie games? I doubt it, that's not what they prefer.

And sometimes, it's better to make a stand and maybe lose a bit of money, than doing what gog did. Because how many people, who actually spend a lot of money here, will move away from gog because of it?

[modded: please refrain from using ethnic slurs - ponczo_]
Post edited June 10, 2021 by ponczo_
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joppo: Let's imagine they told the truth. This means that Gog received A LOT of messages in just a matter of hours from their chinese customers. (Let's not beat around the bush, the only people who could have had a reason to request that game release to be canceled were from China.) Those chinese customers who currently make up only 2%* of Gog customers somehow organized themselves in a matter of hours to mass message Gog? Because it took Gog just a few, maybe 6 hours to issue the controversial lie-... errr, I mean tweet. You should also take it into account that those thousands of messages must have arrived long before the 6 hours mark because Gog's directors would need some time to panic and run around the building like headless chickens before finally deciding that Devotion shouldn't be released anymore.

* (I tried to find the source for this number but couldn't. I thought it was in the "Check these facts and numbers about Gog" thread, but I was mistaken. I still remember seeing it here. Maybe in the board report Canuck_Cat linked? I don't dare open it as there have been some firewalling of gaming media in my office recently)

Or maybe a lot of those messages do not come from Gog customers but from other chinese sources? In that case how does Gog knows if any of those massages came from a gamer? Did they attach receipts of game purchases and personal high score screenshots to their raging demand emails? Well, how sad it would be if Gog capitulated to a plain regular angry mob of CCP supporters. But either way Gog decided to call them "gamers".

It also defies credibility how fast Gog reacted from messages of supposed customers. We're talking about the moment when their support team was at their worst, swamped in refund requests, yet they miraculously hear all those complaints and communicate their bosses in an incredibly expedite fashion that is completely different from everything we know of Gog in recent years and particularly at that moment. How come? I could believe in several of those chinese customers sending messages to Gog asking them to reconsider it, but I can't believe that they would even be able to do it in time, much less be heard.

So yes, I'm calling it insulting us and putting the blame on their customers because they don't dare say it was the threats of chinese sycophants (understandable), but also want the coward way of saying it's not their fault.

"It was not the CCP shills, it was you the gamers, our customers, that demanded it". Yeah right.
I'm not sure why you'd think they would need to organise? Taiwan's independence is a seriously touchy subject in China, and the controversy about this game already existed. I'm not sure if you were joking, but you said GOG also announced the release on Weibo? That would certainly do it, no organisation necessary. Just lots of independently angry people sending GOG messages and encouraging others to do so.

And yes, I'm not pretending all of those people were GOG customers but neither you, I or GOG have any way of checking that either way. All they know is that they get a load of messages protesting. They say "gamers" because it's less formal than "potential customers", that's all. Another poorly thought out move in a string of poorly thought out moves? Very definitely, but I don't see any lying.

I think it's very odd to assume that they were referring to all of their customers when they wrote "many gamers", so I still don't see how it can be interpreted as "insulting us and putting the blame on their customers".

What we can probably deduce is that GOG got a lot more anger and in larger numbers when they announced the release than they have done from the "many gamers" tweet otherwise they would have done another U-turn.
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GamezRanker: Even if there were really were many gamers with legitimate criticisms/complaints about GOG selling Devotion, why have the many gamers who voiced criticisms against GOG's decision(to not sell the game) seemingly not been taken into consideration by GOG?

9k+ wishlist votes, several threads on the matter, and yet GOG neither changes course nor says much of anything on the matter
Either there aren't enough of you or you're not angry enough. I'm not saying it's good, it's just what it is.
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ShadowAngel.207: - Giving away Tonight we Riot for free, a despicable pro-communism, pro left propaganda piece of shit
Ahahahahaha.

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ShadowAngel.207: Do Chinks really buy ancient DOS or niche indie games?
You might want to think about your choice of words. The actions of the CCP do not justify ethnic slurs.
Post edited June 10, 2021 by my name is capitayn catte
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my name is capitayn catte: I'm not sure why you'd think they would need to organise? Taiwan's independence is a seriously touchy subject in China, and the controversy about this game already existed. I'm not sure if you were joking, but you said GOG also announced the release on Weibo? That would certainly do it, no organisation necessary. Just lots of independently angry people sending GOG messages and encouraging others to do so.

And yes, I'm not pretending all of those people were GOG customers but neither you, I or GOG have any way of checking that either way. All they know is that they get a load of messages protesting. They say "gamers" because it's less formal than "potential customers", that's all. Another poorly thought out move in a string of poorly thought out moves? Very definitely, but I don't see any lying.

I think it's very odd to assume that they were referring to all of their customers when they wrote "many gamers", so I still don't see how it can be interpreted as "insulting us and putting the blame on their customers".

What we can probably deduce is that GOG got a lot more anger and in larger numbers when they announced the release than they have done from the "many gamers" tweet otherwise they would have done another U-turn.
This is the key to everything. There was a huge backlash on Weibo from the announcement, which was invisible to most of GOG's customers and made the "many gamers" statement sound like a lie. This whole thing was handled poorly from a PR perspective but GOG wasn't lying.