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"China" returned 29 posts
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my name is capitayn catte: I'm not sure why you'd think they would need to organise? Taiwan's independence is a seriously touchy subject in China, and the controversy about this game already existed. I'm not sure if you were joking, but you said GOG also announced the release on Weibo? That would certainly do it, no organisation necessary. Just lots of independently angry people sending GOG messages and encouraging others to do so.

And yes, I'm not pretending all of those people were GOG customers but neither you, I or GOG have any way of checking that either way. All they know is that they get a load of messages protesting. They say "gamers" because it's less formal than "potential customers", that's all. Another poorly thought out move in a string of poorly thought out moves? Very definitely, but I don't see any lying.

I think it's very odd to assume that they were referring to all of their customers when they wrote "many gamers", so I still don't see how it can be interpreted as "insulting us and putting the blame on their customers".

What we can probably deduce is that GOG got a lot more anger and in larger numbers when they announced the release than they have done from the "many gamers" tweet otherwise they would have done another U-turn.
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Flaose: This is the key to everything. There was a huge backlash on Weibo from the announcement, which was invisible to most of GOG's customers and made the "many gamers" statement sound like a lie. This whole thing was handled poorly from a PR perspective but GOG wasn't lying.
*Presses X to doubt*
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Guaranteed that 90% of the people on this board who say they are ""interested"" in Devotion don't give a shit about some obscure low-budget Taiwanese horror game and they are just here to shitpost about China because they got bored of 4chan. That weirdo with the Winnie the Pooh avatar a good example.
Post edited July 01, 2021 by Crosmando
I'm less interested in it because this version is censored but I still bought it. Shameful display, China.
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borisburke: I'm supporting GOG. They clearly decide to list or withhold a game based upon gamer requests. 9050 gamers want it, so more than that number must have asked GOG to not list it. Simple. GOG wouldn't lie to us, would it?
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my name is capitayn catte: Have you any idea how big the Chinese game market is?

I'm not defending the PRC regime, but a large number of Chinese citizens do. It's entirely plausible that GOG's announcement attracted a lot of negative attention from them. Whether they are "gamers" or GOG customers isn't something that's easy to know, but I can very easily believe that they were bombarded with messages.
As has been discussed in the boycott thread, if Chinese gamers/CCP don't like it, then at most the game should not be offered for sale in China. Chinese gamers have no business deciding what games are sold outside of their country and there can be no justification for the game being pulled worldwide that way that it was.

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my name is capitayn catte: As for believing them, the alternative is that they're lying. Why would they lie about it? What exactly would that achieve (other than annoying some of their customers)?
They are obviously lying, because they were most likely threatened by the CCP or a large and powerful Chinese investor, but they can't admit that, so they have to fabricate a cover story. No evidence of these ethereal 'messages from many gamers' has ever been presented. It hasn't achieved much, except annoying customers - I'm sure most people who want the game have bought it already from Red Candle's Store (myself included).
Post edited July 01, 2021 by Time4Tea
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JakobFel: The literal only reason so many signed that is because they're looking for reasons to whine. Even a child would be able to understand why they can't sell the game. I guarantee you that probably ~2% of those signatures would actually buy the game if GOG ended up reversing that decision.

And no one give me the "simp for China" argument. I despise the CCP, though I love Chinese history and I pity the people to have to suffer such negligent, evil governance. It's just common sense, though: thanks to the CCP's ridiculousness, GOG was forced to choose between selling a game that has a rather small potential playerbase or risk losing out on an entire MARKET. Would it be awesome if GOG were able to stand up to the tyranny? Absolutely, but that's not how business works. People complaining about this really need to have a reality check because, as I said, it doesn't take a genius to understand why they did what they did...
Unfortunately, what may be 'common business sense' to GOG is unethical to me and unacceptable. Common business sense does not justify unethical behavior and I do not buy into the view that we should give corporations a free pass to engage in unethical behavior, as long as it is in their business interests. Hence the boycott.

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Flaose: This is the key to everything. There was a huge backlash on Weibo from the announcement, which was invisible to most of GOG's customers and made the "many gamers" statement sound like a lie. This whole thing was handled poorly from a PR perspective but GOG wasn't lying.
Please show us some evidence of these thousands of messages then. As mentioned previously, even if they exist, it would at most justify pulling the game from release in China.
Post edited July 01, 2021 by Time4Tea
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Time4Tea: As has been discussed in the boycott thread, if Chinese gamers/CCP don't like it, then at most the game should not be offered for sale in China. Chinese gamers have no business deciding what games are sold outside of their country and there can be no justification for the game being pulled worldwide that way that it was.
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They are obviously lying, because they were most likely threatened by the CCP or a large and powerful Chinese investor, but they can't admit that, so they have to fabricate a cover story. No evidence of these ethereal 'messages from many gamers' has ever been presented. It hasn't achieved much, except annoying customers - I'm sure most people who want the game have bought it already from Red Candle's Store (myself included).
It's GOG's business deciding which games they sell and they seem to have made their decision.
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Evidence of the messages has already been presented. I'm not going to go out of my way to find it and present it to you because I have no investment in changing your mind.
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Time4Tea: No evidence of these ethereal 'messages from many gamers' has ever been presented.
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my name is capitayn catte: Sorry, but if you are going to make a claim like that, then you need to be able to back it up, or you shouldn't be making it.
It's usually difficult to impossible to prove a negative. You're the one who is making a positive claim that there is evidence of 'messages from many gamers', therefore imo the onus should be on you to back that up.

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Time4Tea: Well, that's a very convenient cop-out. Sorry, but if you are going to make a claim like that, then you need to be able to back it up, or you shouldn't be making it.
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my name is capitayn catte: I shouldn't need to given that they've already been referenced in this thread.
Are you referring to this thread that was linked? I haven't seen that before, but I'm reading it now.

All I see there is a handful of posts by annoyed Chinese users on GOG's Weibo account. Nothing that suggests anything like the sort of numbers that would rival the 9000+ votes on the Devotion wishlist request. In addition, the OP there seems to agree that "The right thing to do now is still to release the game outside of China.". I agree 100%.
Post edited July 01, 2021 by Time4Tea
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my name is capitayn catte: Sorry, but if you are going to make a claim like that, then you need to be able to back it up, or you shouldn't be making it.
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Time4Tea: It's usually difficult to impossible to prove a negative. You're the one who is making a positive claim that there is evidence of 'messages from many gamers', therefore imo the onus should be on you to back that up.

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my name is capitayn catte: I shouldn't need to given that they've already been referenced in this thread.
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Time4Tea: Are you referring to this thread that was linked? I haven't seen that before, but I'm reading it now.

All I see there is a handful of posts by annoyed Chinese users on GOG's Weibo account. Nothing that suggests anything like the sort of numbers that would rival the 9000+ votes on the Devotion wishlist request. In addition, the OP there seems to agree that "The right thing to do now is still to release the game outside of China.". I agree 100%.
You specifically made the claim that nothing had been presented, even though it demonstrably had. It would be like you saying "There has never been any evidence that water is wet". Asking you to back up the claim that there is no evidence is not asking you to prove a negative, but rather the assertion you made.

Given the population of China and the fervent nationalism it's not really hard to imagine that 9000+ people sent GOG angry messages after the weibo post went viral.

The right thing to do is to release the game outside of China, but I imagine GOG is scared of "hurting the feelings of the Chinese people" and getting banned in China.

I don't think GOG are liars but I never said they're not cowards.
Post edited July 01, 2021 by my name is capitayn catte
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Crosmando: Guaranteed that 90% of the people on this board who say they are ""interested"" in Devotion don't give a shit about some obscure low-budget Taiwanese horror game and they are just here to shitpost about China because they got bored of 4chan. That weirdo with the Winnie the Pooh avatar a good example.
I'm one of those unfortunate 10 percenters who played the dev's previous game Detention (which was slated for a gog release and was collateral damage from the Devotion fiasco) and it was legitimately great. And I don't say this slightly. It's one of the best point&clicks ever made, it had an actually good story that made clever use of the medium (it was remade as a movie some time ago, but there's no way the same story could work as a movie, at least not as well). Take it from me: It's a damn shame that these games aren't here and I don't really mind the "M-Muh Chyna"-mouthbreathers causing a ruckus about it. If anything, there should be more of a ruckus from normie gamers as well.
Post edited July 01, 2021 by fronzelneekburm
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my name is capitayn catte: You specifically made the claim that nothing had been presented, even though it demonstrably had. It would be like you saying "There has never been any evidence that water is wet". Asking you to back up the claim that there is no evidence is not asking you to prove a negative, but rather the assertion you made.
This is utter nonsense, as is your analogy. So, if someone knocks on my door and claims they saw a unicorn at the local park, the onus would somehow be on me to prove that unicorns don't exist, or I have no right to be skeptical?

The 'water is wet' analogy is completely flawed. Water is obviously wet, by the definition of the word 'wet'. I am not making a nonsensical claim that something is not true that is obviously true by definition. That is a highly disingenuous analogy.

You are right that 'something has been presented' (assuming we are referring to the Weibo thread); however, the evidence there is so weak it could hardly be considered as such. Certainly, the handful of posts shown there does not support the claim of a huge backlash by Chinese gamers, that would in any way justify the unfortunate knee-jerk reaction that GOG made.

Therefore, I believe my statement that "no evidence has been presented that supports these claims of 'messages from many gamers'" is valid (unless you have another example)?

Edit: Also, let's not forget, this all started with GOG's claim initially that their actions were justified as a result of 'messages from many gamers'. Therefore, if the burden of proof lies on anybody, I would argue that burden is on GOG to provide evidence of those messages (which they have not done). And that is besides the fact that, if private messages from Chinese gamers were sent to GOG, then GOG are the only ones who can prove that one way or the other, unless I break the law and hack into their systems. Personally, I find their continued silence on the matter quiet damning.

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my name is capitayn catte: Given the population of China and the fervent nationalism it's not really hard to imagine that 9000+ people sent GOG angry messages after the weibo post went viral.
I thought we were talking about evidence (i.e. the real world), not your personal imaginings?

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fronzelneekburm: I'm one of those unfortunate 10 percenters who played the dev's previous game Detention (which was slated for a gog release and was collateral damage from the Devotion fiasco) and it was legitimately great. And I don't say this slightly. It's one of the best point&clicks ever made, it had an actually good story that made clever use of the medium (it was remade as a movie some time ago, but there's no way the same story could work as a movie, at least not as well). Take it from me: It's a damn shame that these games aren't here and I don't really mind the "M-Muh Chyna"-mouthbreathers causing a ruckus about it. If anything, there should be more of a ruckus from normie gamers as well.
I have played Detention as well (although not yet Devotion) and I agree it is a very good, well-made and unique game that is certainly worth playing. Perhaps Crosmando should consider actually trying one of Red Candle's games, before making assumptions?
Post edited July 01, 2021 by Time4Tea
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my name is capitayn catte: You specifically made the claim that nothing had been presented, even though it demonstrably had. It would be like you saying "There has never been any evidence that water is wet". Asking you to back up the claim that there is no evidence is not asking you to prove a negative, but rather the assertion you made.
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Time4Tea: This is utter nonsense, as is your analogy. So, if someone knocks on my door and claims they saw a unicorn at the local park, the onus would somehow be on me to prove that unicorns don't exist, or I have no right to be skeptical?

The 'water is wet' analogy is completely flawed. Water is obviously wet, by the definition of the word 'wet'. I am not making a nonsensical claim that something is not true that is obviously true by definition. That is a highly disingenuous analogy.

You are right that 'something has been presented' (assuming we are referring to the Weibo thread); however, the evidence there is so weak it could hardly be considered as such. Certainly, the handful of posts shown there does not support the claim of a huge backlash by Chinese gamers, that would in any way justify the unfortunate knee-jerk reaction that GOG made.

Therefore, I believe my statement that "no evidence has been presented that supports these claims of 'messages from many gamers'" is valid (unless you have another example)?

Edit: Also, let's not forget, this all started with GOG's claim initially that their actions were justified as a result of 'messages from many gamers'. Therefore, if the burden of proof lies on anybody, I would argue that burden is on GOG to provide evidence of those messages (which they have not done). And that is besides the fact that, if private messages from Chinese gamers were sent to GOG, then GOG are the only ones who can prove that one way or the other, unless I break the law and hack into their systems. Personally, I find their continued silence on the matter quiet damning.

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my name is capitayn catte: Given the population of China and the fervent nationalism it's not really hard to imagine that 9000+ people sent GOG angry messages after the weibo post went viral.
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Time4Tea: I thought we were talking about evidence (i.e. the real world), not your personal imaginings?
Your unicorn analogy is faulty. If evidence of unicorns existence was published and you then asserted "No evidence of the existence of unicorns has ever been presented." then I was expect you to prove that claim.
i.e. I would expect you to explain why the evidence that has been presented doesn't count.
Post edited July 01, 2021 by my name is capitayn catte
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my name is capitayn catte: Your unicorn analogy is faulty. If evidence of unicorns existence was published and you then asserted "No evidence of the existence of unicorns has ever been presented." then I was expect you to prove that claim.
i.e. I would expect you to explain why the evidence that has been presented doesn't count.
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Time4Tea: No, it's not. If you knocked on my door with that claim and also claimed that evidence supporting the existence of unicorns has been published, I would expect you to be able to direct me to that published evidence. If that evidence turned out to be weak and unconvincing, I would be justified in dismissing it and asking you to provide a better example.

I think part of the disagreement here may be that we have differing interpretations of what we consider 'evidence'. You seem to be including anything that has been proposed as evidence (regardless of quality). However, when I talk about 'evidence', what I mean is 'convincing evidence'.

As joppo mentioned above, that thread about the Weibo posts to me seems like weak and unconvincing 'evidence'. All that is evident there are a small handful of posts from Chinese users, which does not indicate anything like the sort of large scale backlash from 'many gamers' that would have justified GOG's rush to remove Devotion from sale. I find that to be highly unconvincing; therefore I don't really consider it to be valid 'evidence'.

You have a point though, in that 'something' has been put forward and proposed as evidence. So, perhaps it would help if I clarify my position (to try to avoid further confusion):

I have not seen any convincing evidence to support GOG's claim that they had received 'messages from many gamers' that would have constituted a large backlash from Chinese gamers.

What I would consider to be convincing evidence would be screenshots or sample messages showing that at least several dozen messages were received, if not several hundred, over a short period of time. Remember, over 9000 people have signed the Devotion wishlist request and GOG have not graced them with a response, nor even acknowledged them. So, I would expect there to be a damn sight more than 5 measly Weibo posts from Chinese gamers lying around somewhere, that would have constituted a backlash large enough for GOG to do a 180 on Devotion within a matter of hours.

And here is the thing (which joppo also mentioned): if GOG's claim is true, then they should easily be able to provide convincing proof of these thousands of messages from Chinese gamers, because they should have the records of that on their system. Therefore, my expectation for GOG to prove their claim is reasonable, since they should easily be able to prove it. (and this forms a large part of why I don't believe them)

On the other hand, your demand that I prove that no (convincing) evidence exists is not reasonable, since I don't have access to GOG's records and so for me to prove that sort of negative is going to be nigh on impossible. It should be understandable that I am not able to prove something that is intrinsically very difficult for me to prove, but it is far less understandable (imo) that GOG is not able to prove something that should be very easy for them.

Again, the burden of proof here clearly rests on GOG:

- they are the ones who made the initial claim of 'many gamers'
- they are the ones who are able to easily prove their claim (since they have access to the records)
- ultimately, it is their credibility that is on the line here (so they should have an incentive to provide the proof)
Whether or not GOG could prove their claim, why would you expect them to want to? They've never been known for transparency about anything, even when accused of all kinds of things. GOG's standard tactic is to stay quiet.

However, I consider them innocent until proven guilty. With the evidence that is available to us - that the game is highly controversial in China, the fact they announced the release directly on Chinese social media thereby skipping a few steps towards it going viral and the expected negative responses - I see no reason to disbelieve that they got a very large amount of negative feedback in a short space of time. Everyone is a potential customer, thus 'many gamers'.

The number of wishlist votes is somewhat irrelevant. The important numbers are:

- How many sales will be lost due to not releasing Devotion? I'm not talking about sales of Devotion, I'm talking about lost sales in general from those boycotting.
- How many sales would be lost if they did release Devotion? At the very least there would be a much larger boycott in China than the one they're currently experiencing. There would be even more sales lost if they were actually banned.

I'm not normally one to defend GOG, and I think they've handled this situation abysmally at every stage but being stupid and being a liar are different things. I still haven't seen anything to convince me that GOG are lying. For all this talk about burden of proof, I think if you're going to assert that they lied you're going to need proof. Innocent until proven guilty and all that.
My defence of them is not due to having proof that they're not lying, but due to not having proof that they are.

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DoomSooth: Any proof that GOG would provide isn't going to be accepted unless identities of the "gamers" can be verified.
What exactly would need verifying and how? The gaming community, as diffuse as it is, has for a long time been guilty of terrible gatekeeping and "no true Scotsman" arguments. How the hell do you decide whether someone is a gamer or not?

And aside from that, in the context of a company that sells games, "gamers" is nothing more than buddy-buddy PR speak for customers (both current and potential). To assume that it means anything more specific when coming from the PR channels of a games company is naivete itself.
Post edited July 02, 2021 by my name is capitayn catte
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Crosmando: Guaranteed that 90% of the people on this board who say they are ""interested"" in Devotion don't give a shit about some obscure low-budget Taiwanese horror game and they are just here to shitpost about China because they got bored of 4chan. That weirdo with the Winnie the Pooh avatar a good example.
This is true across multiple companies that had been behaving badly towards their customers and it wasn't until there was some complaint about China that people made a fuss over it.
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Arinielle: the credit system they have in their country now
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fronzelneekburm: Thing is... contrary to what the 24/7 brainwashing in Western media has told you (probably in an effort to deflect from the scary amount of government surveillance the self-professed "free world" subjects its citizens to), the Chinese have not even implemented that system yet. Last I heard there are a number of different rating systems by various different companies that are still in the testing stage.

In other words, I don't think Chinese internet users have ratted gog out to their government for imaginary good boy points.
Noted.

I tend to try not to trust just news of any kind. I 'was' seeing some people talking about living there and not being allowed to talk about it much or people that were able to get out of China and be more open. There's only so much anyone can know outside of any country that's spoken about. There's always going to be a lot of different, opposing thoughts and claims from people that are from the countries people hear certain things about as well as everyone outside of those countries saying what they think. World 'news' is very much muddy water.