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General discussionDEFCON's DRM is still active, support doesn't give a crap(555 posts)(555 posts)
(555 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted July 02, 2015
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Gilozard: It could easily be that GOG got the developer to remove the DRM-check at one point, than the dev made a patch and forgot to set it up separately for GOG, so the patch also patched in the DRM. GOG is now asking the Dev to set up a special build for GOG with the check permanently removed from the code to prevent patching the DRM back in in the future.

Having working in development, this seems the most likely explanation to me.
The point is that GOG should have done this from the start in order for the game to qualify as DRM-free and be advertised and sold as such here, simple as that. This is not the first time this happens, yet GOG didn't bother to ask for a proper DRM-free build until now, and the game's sold here since 2012.

As for the patching part - from the posts Ciris made, the DRM-check was never removed, it's just that the pre-activation key used to pass the check, until the dev revoked it, twice. It may seem to be the most likely explanation to you, but it's still not much of an excuse on GOG's part, as they knew that the DRM was never removed, just worked around, and in a way that the dev could revoke at any time.



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BillyMaysFan59: I still keep wondering why he decided to quit. :(
The abundance of Good News™ was too much for him to handle.
Post edited July 02, 2015 by HypersomniacLive
Posted July 02, 2015
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HypersomniacLive: Too much Good News™.
Hey that reminds me.... this situation calls for the "Good News(TM)" theme song!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrylXQILoKs
Posted July 03, 2015
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SirPrimalform: The fact is that the game contains code that allows the developer to remotely disable your game and GOG doesn't seem bothered. How is that not a big deal for a supposedly DRM-free store?
Not saying it isn't rather saying some people are making this out to be a bigger deal then it really needs to be. I fully agree it shouldn't have made it on to GOG like that.

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SirPrimalform: It's not just the 'solution' I got from support, it's also Ciris's replies. They show either a lack of understanding of the issue or a lack of concern. Either way, Ciris is speaking for GOG in this thread and the lack of concern/understanding is distressing. Yes a proper solution is coming, but they're still happily selling the game and have been for ages.
What more could you ask for? They recognized the issue, gave a temporary solution to the problem and are making every attempt to rectify the issue by getting the dev to make a truly drm free version. Yes the issue should never had been an issue but lets not fault them for were they are doing something right.

What good will removing the game do? Most of those who really want it probably already have it. At this point a proper solution is coming, no point in removing the game just to have to add it back in few weeks/months. The dev has unban the key so this should not be an issue while we wait for a proper drm free version. I agree it's not ideal, but neither is going overboard on this.
Posted July 03, 2015
wow....13 pages all asking wtf? lol

They either fired all the wrong people or just pushed in a direction that was shadowed by the dark side of the force.

If I owned this title, I'd be super pissed.
Posted July 03, 2015
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BKGaming: What more could you ask for? They recognized the issue, gave a temporary solution to the problem and are making every attempt to rectify the issue by getting the dev to make a truly drm free version. Yes the issue should never had been an issue but lets not fault them for were they are doing something right.
Given that they have apparently known for the past 3 years that the game is not actually DRM free, I think the whole "let's cut them some slack guys" attitude is quite a bit more lenient than they deserve. This is a bit more than a "mistake". It's fraud, and it's both unethical and illegal.
Posted July 03, 2015
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BKGaming: What more could you ask for? They recognized the issue, gave a temporary solution to the problem and are making every attempt to rectify the issue by getting the dev to make a truly drm free version. Yes the issue should never had been an issue but lets not fault them for were they are doing something right.
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Wishbone: Given that they have apparently known for the past 3 years that the game is not actually DRM free, I think the whole "let's cut them some slack guys" attitude is quite a bit more lenient than they deserve. This is a bit more than a "mistake". It's fraud, and it's both unethical and illegal.
Like DRM there is no set definition of DRM free, so you would have a hard time proving this illegal or fraud. Unethical maybe, in the spirit of the term. According to what GOG advertises, DRM free means "no copy protection, on-line checks, or any other annoyances". This was pretty much true of this game up until this point, you could copy it, you didn't need to check in online to play and generally there was no annoyances up until now.

The only part you might have some claim to here is the last part that says you will never be locked away from your purchases online or offline. But that is going to be left up to interpretation of what that is actually saying.

To them giving the game a universal cd-key to trick the DRM was essentially making the game DRM free because it made the DRM non existent to the end user. Obviously this was not the best decision because it was not permanent and it appears now they realize that. Had this been permanent meaning the dev could not ban the key, this would never had been an issue and it would have complied completely with what GOG advertises as DRM free.

Some people see DRM free and they take that to mean there is no left in DRM in the game, but that is not what actually GOG advertises as DRM free. The advertise that that DRM will not effect you the end user essentially making the game DRM free and they clearly dropped the ball here.

Again I fully agree they handled this poorly, but at-least there handling it now. This isn't the first nor will it be the last time where DRM slips through, what matters is that it's handled when it does.
Post edited July 03, 2015 by BKGaming
Posted July 03, 2015
I continue to be amazed at the lengths some go to defend this store/company. They screwed up, that's why they are offering refunds because of it.
Posted July 03, 2015
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synfresh: They screwed up
I don't think anyone denies that, but not all of us have such limited viewpoints to blast them because of it. Just saying.
Posted July 03, 2015
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Wishbone: Given that they have apparently known for the past 3 years that the game is not actually DRM free, I think the whole "let's cut them some slack guys" attitude is quite a bit more lenient than they deserve. This is a bit more than a "mistake". It's fraud, and it's both unethical and illegal.
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BKGaming: Like DRM there is no set definition of DRM free, so you would have a hard time proving this illegal or fraud. Unethical maybe, in the spirit of the term. According to what GOG advertises, DRM free means "no copy protection, on-line checks, or any other annoyances". This was pretty much true of this game up until this point, you could copy it, you didn't need to check in online to play and generally there was no annoyances up until now.

The only part you might have some claim to here is the last part that says you will never be locked away from your purchases online or offline. But that is going to be left up to interpretation of what that is actually saying.

To them giving the game a universal cd-key to trick the DRM was essentially making the game DRM free because it made the DRM non existent to the end user. Obviously this was not the best decision because it was not permanent and it appears now they realize that. Had this been permanent meaning the dev could not ban the key, this would never had been an issue and it would have complied completely with what GOG advertises as DRM free.

Some people see DRM free and they take that to mean there is no left in DRM in the game, but that is not what actually GOG advertises as DRM free. The advertise that that DRM will not effect you the end user essentially making the game DRM free and they clearly dropped the ball here.

Again I fully agree they handled this poorly, but at-least there handling it now. This isn't the first nor will it be the last time where DRM slips through, what matters is that it's handled when it does.
Welllllll....no, not really. A game calling out and shutting itself off to the user = DRM

That is illegal and fraudulent because GOG staff knew this and still sold the product in this form. This was why people got pissed off with Steam years ago if they ever shut down. Product sold to customers under a false pretense = illegal/fraudulent by definition. They aren't issuing refunds because they want to. They know if anyone decided to bring a class action lawsuit against them, even from a foreign nation. It could go badly if nothing else for bad PR(public relations).
Posted July 03, 2015
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Shmacky-McNuts: Welllllll....no, not really. A game calling out and shutting itself off to the user = DRM
I'm not saying it isn't. I don't think you fully read what I wrote. I said up until the point were the key was banned, it actually falls under what GOG advertised as DRM free. I'm not a lawyer but here in the US at-least were so far behind the times in defining the legality of software and technology it's not even funny, so for instance here you would have a hard time proving such things illegal or fraudulent because there is no clear cut definition legally speaking of what DRM or DRM free means. And it would be on you to do that.

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Shmacky-McNuts: That is illegal and fraudulent because GOG staff knew this and still sold the product in this form. This was why people got pissed off with Steam years ago if they ever shut down. Product sold to customers under a false pretense = illegal/fraudulent by definition. They aren't issuing refunds because they want to. They know if anyone decided to bring a class action lawsuit against them, even from a foreign nation. It could go badly if nothing else for bad PR(public relations).
This also is not exactly the same as Steam. If the developers servers ever shut down it would have never effected you or anyone at all, this only effected people because the developers servers were active and the ban they key which the game was only able to verify by connecting to the servers. Had those servers not existed there would have been no effect.

EDIT: Having read that again, If you referring more to GOG shutting down, well I can perhaps see that, but truthfully there was a better chance of the dev shutting down than GOG. Just saying.

Also GOG is based in Poland and therefor would be acceptable to polish laws, again I'm not a lawyer but it's a different ball game online were companies are based internationally are are acceptable to different laws. GOG offering refunds is more about PR than anything else I assure you, GOG is known for being a consumer friendly company and not offering refunds would have been anti-consumer. Not to mention that amount of people who probably bought the game on GOG and therefor would be able to bring a class action lawsuit is probably very minor that it would not have a significant effect anyway. Plus any court system would likely take into account if the company tried to rectify the situation, which GOG is clearly doing.
Post edited July 03, 2015 by BKGaming
Posted July 03, 2015
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Shmacky-McNuts: Welllllll....no, not really. A game calling out and shutting itself off to the user = DRM
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BKGaming: I'm not saying it isn't. I don't think you fully read what I wrote. I said up until the point were the key was banned, it actually falls under what GOG advertised as DRM free. I'm not a lawyer but here in the US at-least were so far behind the times in defining the legality of software and technology it's not even funny, so for instance here you would have a hard time proving such things illegal or fraudulent because there is no clear cut definition legally speaking of what DRM or DRM free means. And it would be on you to do that.

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Shmacky-McNuts: That is illegal and fraudulent because GOG staff knew this and still sold the product in this form. This was why people got pissed off with Steam years ago if they ever shut down. Product sold to customers under a false pretense = illegal/fraudulent by definition. They aren't issuing refunds because they want to. They know if anyone decided to bring a class action lawsuit against them, even from a foreign nation. It could go badly if nothing else for bad PR(public relations).
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BKGaming: This also is not exactly the same as Steam. If the developers servers ever shut down it would have never effected you or anyone at all, this only effected people because the developers servers were active and the ban they key which the game was only able to verify by connecting to the servers. Had those servers not existed there would have been no effect.

EDIT: Having read that again, If you referring more to GOG shutting down, well I can perhaps see that, but truthfully there was a better chance of the dev shutting down than GOG. Just saying.

Also GOG is based in Poland and therefor would be acceptable to polish laws, again I'm not a lawyer but it's a different ball game online were companies are based internationally are are acceptable to different laws. GOG offering refunds is more about PR than anything else I assure you, GOG is known for being a consumer friendly company and not offering refunds would have been anti-consumer. Not to mention that amount of people who probably bought the game on GOG and therefor would be able to bring a class action lawsuit is probably very minor that it would not have a significant effect anyway. Not to mention any court system would likely take into account if the company tried to rectify the situation, which GOG is clearly doing.
Well in short they turned off the code as being not much different than not having the server in which it wouldn't work if I understand what the smurf had talked about. Which would be like Steam shutting down and none of the call outs would connect in order to allow the games to function. That is DRM =(


Unless of course not making the online connection wouldn't affect anything. In short...."MEH!" I don't own the crappy game anyway. lol

I dig they are doing refunds though. But I"d still be miffed if I DID own the game that was making call outs and sh!t. I consider that to be DRM regardless of it not working or working.

Just like I was pissed off at Xenonauts for the same reason. Plus in THAT case the dumb ass dev/owner claims not to even have the friggin source code to his own f*ckin game....but I don't wanna get started on THAT again =/
Post edited July 03, 2015 by Shmacky-McNuts
Posted July 03, 2015
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BKGaming: I'm not a lawyer but here in the US at-least were so far behind the times in defining the legality of software and technology it's not even funny, so for instance here you would have a hard time proving such things illegal or fraudulent because there is no clear cut definition legally speaking of what DRM or DRM free means.
This.
I was checking the few legalese available in the site and I could not find a definition of DRM or a clause that says GOG is reponsible for delivering DRM-Free products. There's a paragraph in the FAQ but I don't think that could be constitued as legally binding.
Posted July 03, 2015
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BKGaming: I'm not a lawyer but here in the US at-least were so far behind the times in defining the legality of software and technology it's not even funny, so for instance here you would have a hard time proving such things illegal or fraudulent because there is no clear cut definition legally speaking of what DRM or DRM free means.
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madth3: This.
I was checking the few legalese available in the site and I could not find a definition of DRM or a clause that says GOG is reponsible for delivering DRM-Free products. There's a paragraph in the FAQ but I don't think that could be constitued as legally binding.
Correct me if I'm wrong but the entire website is based upon selling DRM free games. Now the speecific definition of this? Well they may get away with a lot, but the bottom line is they have a core audience of hard core gamers. So that would go badly if this trend of screw ups continues.
Post edited July 03, 2015 by Shmacky-McNuts
Posted July 03, 2015
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BKGaming: I'm not saying it isn't. I don't think you fully read what I wrote. I said up until the point were the key was banned, it actually falls under what GOG advertised as DRM free. I'm not a lawyer but here in the US at-least were so far behind the times in defining the legality of software and technology it's not even funny, so for instance here you would have a hard time proving such things illegal or fraudulent because there is no clear cut definition legally speaking of what DRM or DRM free means. And it would be on you to do that.

This also is not exactly the same as Steam. If the developers servers ever shut down it would have never effected you or anyone at all, this only effected people because the developers servers were active and the ban they key which the game was only able to verify by connecting to the servers. Had those servers not existed there would have been no effect.

EDIT: Having read that again, If you referring more to GOG shutting down, well I can perhaps see that, but truthfully there was a better chance of the dev shutting down than GOG. Just saying.

Also GOG is based in Poland and therefor would be acceptable to polish laws, again I'm not a lawyer but it's a different ball game online were companies are based internationally are are acceptable to different laws. GOG offering refunds is more about PR than anything else I assure you, GOG is known for being a consumer friendly company and not offering refunds would have been anti-consumer. Not to mention that amount of people who probably bought the game on GOG and therefor would be able to bring a class action lawsuit is probably very minor that it would not have a significant effect anyway. Not to mention any court system would likely take into account if the company tried to rectify the situation, which GOG is clearly doing.
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Shmacky-McNuts: Well in short they turned off the code as being not much different than not having the server in which it wouldn't work if I understand what the smurf had talked about. Which would be like Steam shutting down and none of the call outs would connect in order to allow the games to function. That is DRM =(
Again I don't agree with how they handled this game, and I agree it is technically not DRM free in it's current form because the developer can revoke access. Just saying up into that point where the key was revoked it really did fall under what GOG advertises as DRM free. There is no point on dwelling on that though, it happen, it's well known now, and GOG has promised to provide a proper DRM free version.

I would have been more upset had GOG brushed it off completely and had not worked to find a appropriate solution to this issue like most companies would have done. There is what 200 comments in the thread, and GOG replied after what 15 comments or so saying they are working on a solution? How long did it take Valve to respond to paid mods? A petition with over 100, 000 signatures and days of thousands complaining on the forum.
Post edited July 03, 2015 by BKGaming
Posted July 03, 2015
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BKGaming: I'm not a lawyer but here in the US at-least were so far behind the times in defining the legality of software and technology it's not even funny, so for instance here you would have a hard time proving such things illegal or fraudulent because there is no clear cut definition legally speaking of what DRM or DRM free means.
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madth3: This.
I was checking the few legalese available in the site and I could not find a definition of DRM or a clause that says GOG is reponsible for delivering DRM-Free products. There's a paragraph in the FAQ but I don't think that could be constitued as legally binding.
Sorry if this sounds dumb, but seeing as GOG is not in the US and doesn't have US servers (or does it?), can the US law system actually do anything if it wanted to? Unless there were legally binding documents, such as the ones you were referring to?
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussionDEFCON's DRM is still active, support doesn't give a crap(555 posts)(555 posts)
(555 posts)