I always enjoy these "what is an RPG" discussions. They never end in a consensus being reached, but it tells you something about how people play these games and what they expect from them.

Not aimed at you, but most of the Codex consists of 4chan rejects nowadays who haven't the faintest clue what they're talking about. The number of posters with a genuine passion for RPGs has always been no more than a handful and the rest does nothing but parrot their arguments to look respectable. It's all about trying your hardest to look like hardcore enthusiasts, but they're really just spouting memes at each other and can't process anything unfamiliar.

There's no humour in their misanthropy anymore and it's certainly no longer equal opportunity, that would be the early Codex, but the current batch of posters has quite a few that are very sincere about all the shit they spew and who drown out any worthwhile debate - I blame the off-topic boards bringing in people more interested in being fuckheads than talking about games. The reviews can be quite good though and if you're willing to dig around for old threads there's interesting discussions to be found.

Meta gaming was present in PnP since it's beginnings. For every serious roleplayer, there were two powergamers and three more players who were in the middle. After all, there have been competitive D&D modules.

I do agree making decisions in character is serious roleplaying, but 1) RPG weren't only played by serious roleplayers 2) you can seriously roleplay a character in many video games outside of RPG genre (take Yahtzee and Saints Row series).

Well, I only go there once in a while to see new RPG news and see what's reception of a new RPG. Then I see through crapton of rubbish what's objective value of a game. There top lists and reviews are genuinely good however, and I have them as curators on Steam (even though I don't buy games there any more) just so I can see what's good on the market.

Stupid idea that.
You should never pre order, no matter how much you've liked a devs previos games.
If you like them, you should crowdfund them instead,

However, due to the setting up of a back for profit system, pretending to be crowdfunding, that is called "Fig".
Only if you approve of them twisting crowdfunding into a invest make money system.
I'm fundamentally opposed to such distortions, so wouldn't back this.

That turns it back into an invest for profit system, that created the AAA industry I despise.
I risk losing money, by crowdfunding to get great games, that for profit investors won't ever fund.
Not to become another for profit investor, that won't fund the type of risky game projects I want to play.

Fig is an abomination, and I'll never back any game using it.
I'll only back projects with 100% not for Profit crowdfunding,

Only preorder, if you're perfectly happy with getting the worst game ever made.
In other words, you'll support the devs, no matter what condition the game releases in.
You give up demanding a good game, if you bought it, before it even was a game.

Wait until it's released, then decide if you want what they selling.
If you want a good game, then wait, and see if they actually deliver a good game, before you buy it.

I pre-order games since 2001 with PS2,Never Disappointed...

I don't use FIG and I crowfunded only few games (no problem,those games are great).
I don't see the point of "It's horrible...a pre-order!!!".
You don't like stupid bonus added with pre-order?
Don't pay for it!
Those digital things are useless most of the time (only Soundtrack or Art-book are a real plus).
Games that I'm not certain to play a lot,I wait for 50% off or the version GOTY.

Let me pre-order games that i love,thanks XD

It will be an instabuy for me!!!!!!
Once the definitive edition hits the -80% range, I mean.
Sorry to be obnoxious, but I still have a very bitter taste in my mouth for all the PoE 1 mess. It's even worse knowing how good the game is.

Someone's probably said this already but I think we should all wait for the Definitive Edition as not to get fucked over with no possible upgrade paths available.

Edit: yep the person above me is one of those that's said the same thing

Not getting this until a definitive version is available. Sorry but I got burned on the first game because Paradox/Obsidian didn't provide upgrade paths as promised.

(Final Fantasy X boss strategy spoiler here)

It sounds like you are arguing that playing a game and using good strategy is a bad thing; it is not. Also, I have been playing CRPGs for a very long time, and the first time I ever heard the term "meta-gaming" in reference to a CRPG was when I started looking up strategies for the Baldur's Gate series, long after the release of those games.

Anyway, if you consider using your knowledge of the game to be "meta-gaming" how are you supposed to win a certain 3-phase battle in Final Fantasy X without doing so? Here are a few characteristics of this boss:

* The boss can (reliably) inflect the Zombie status on your characters, which causes them to be treated as undead (this, for example, means that healing spells do damage). The boss will then cast healing spells on your zombified characters as a form of attacking them. Hence, the logical strategy is to cure that status ailment when inflected, so the boss can't attack the characters this way, and so that you can heal them.

* At the start of the third phase, the boss uses an attack that reliably kills your entire party, but doesn't work on undead; hence, assuming none of your characters are zombies, this is an instant game over. If you don't know about this attack, you will probably lose the fight on your first attempt.

The problem is this: If you go by a "no meta-gaming" rule, and don't allow you to make use of the knowledge that you (but not your characters) gained from a failed attempt at the boss, you simply will not be able to proceed in the game.

Also, people do this sort of thing all the time in other genres as well. In your typical action game, if a boss is particularly difficult, the player might need to learn the boss's patterns in order to win the fight. What makes RPGs any different in this regard?

(Incidentally, regarding the FFX boss, I don't necessarily consider the boss to be bad game design; however, I *do* consider the unskipable 5 minute cutscene (I timed it via a Youtube video) right before the boss (and after the last opportunity to save before the boss) to be bad game design.)

I'm not. I only argued projecting your own experiences onto your character might not be considered role play, nothing else.

Can't wait for this! Wish I could've backed it but hoping to get a preorder in before it comes out.

Currently downloading the backer beta, which I'm glad has been launched with GOG customers in mind.
Thanks a lot for that, Obsidian and GOG!

Wasn't critisising your decision, that's your choice to make.
I was critisising what you actually posted, which said nothing about what your own decision actually was.

As preorders don't even exist yet, you can't have made one, just made the decision you would, without even knowing your bonus items, and in many cases, I have recieved such bonuses whether I actusally preordered or not.

Pillars of Eternity is included, in that growing list
Pillars of Eternity: Hero Edition - Released: March 26, 2015
I bought it Nov 4, 2015
In a GOG sale with 50% off @ £17.49
Six months after it released, but I still received it's Pre-Order Bonus Item and Pet in my Library.

Regardless, I have never cared for, such pathetic bonuses, locked away as feeble bribes.
In the worst examples, needing multiples purchases of the game to get all that store exclusive pre order trash.

Back to your actual post, and my response.
You gave a direct order to other users, not even qualifieed as your opinion, or a recommendation.
Then made an unjustifiable claim that it was infallible.

I responded to what you posted, and was directing that reponse mostly at your target, other GOG users.
Whilst I may have hoped to also convince you of your error, I never really expected it.

Plus I also state, that if you're happy to support the devs, and quite willing to get the game, whether it turns out good, or bad then pre-ordering is OK, but you may want to look to crowdfunding the devs, as the better option.

Plus forgot to point out the new addition on GOG today.
Pillars of Eternity: Definitive Edition
= Pillars of Eternity - Royal Edition, White March Part I & II, plus the Deadfire Pack

Which punishes most existing owners, of the base game + Both White March Expansions.
They should automatically get upgraded to the defitive edition.
All existing owners should be able to upgrade to the Definitive edition, for a fair discount on the content they own.

This wasn't released at the time of my first post, but it immediately negates your second statement, fix that for you
You can go wrong, even if you wait to buy until after release.
Wait until they release the Complete Edition, with all content bundled in.
That's the message this PR failure sends loud, and Clear. Your eager Loyalty, will be "Royally" punished.

You misunderstood...
The "pre-order right now!" thing was for GOG...I don't give order to other users...and certainly never said that the decision of people I don't know is stupid :/

Have a nice day for now ^^

Edit:Btw...I don't care about bonus pre-order...I want to pre-order to own the game in my library and be happy for Xmas XD
I missed the crowfunding...

I added GOG to my first post to clarify.

Edit2:Giving Definitive Edition to previous owners would be great but I got enough fun for my gold...two years ago.
And no Paradox for POE II... It's Obsidian ONLY.
For the better...or the worse...

Any news on the PoE 2: Definite Edition yet?