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"China" returned 39 posts
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Leaving won't solve any problem except that UK won't be able to be part of any upcoming negotiations about amendments and regulations especially and including the negotiations between the EU, China and USA as well as the emerging markets in the south. They way of Switzerland and Norway is not a solution as neither of these countries have a vote within the EU but have to accept any changes the EU adopts trough its parliament if they want to get access to the EU market. The vision of the Brexit-Group of a prosperous trade with the US or China was already officially destroyed as both countries stated that their main trade and negotiation partner in Europe is the EU, not a singular country (see the problems between China and Switzerland and their free-trade negotiations). The Empire has gone. Furthermore, it is important to look who is supporting the leave campaing: Robert Murdoch and his media empire, the rich who deny their workers their rights, the bankers who hope to earn more money by abusing a faulty system they created and which was responsible for the financial crash.

No, the EU is not the solution for every problem and we seriously need to rethink the structure. However, leaving won't solve any problems because what happens in Europe affects the UK as well, if we want it or not. Only by remaining UK be a part of the changes required to lead the EU to a prosperous future for the UK, its citizens and all people in Europe.
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TheZorro: Leaving won't solve any problem except that UK won't be able to be part of any upcoming negotiations about amendments and regulations especially and including the negotiations between the EU, China and USA as well as the emerging markets in the south. They way of Switzerland and Norway is not a solution as neither of these countries have a vote within the EU but have to accept any changes the EU adopts trough its parliament if they want to get access to the EU market. The vision of the Brexit-Group of a prosperous trade with the US or China was already officially destroyed as both countries stated that their main trade and negotiation partner in Europe is the EU, not a singular country (see the problems between China and Switzerland and their free-trade negotiations). The Empire has gone. Furthermore, it is important to look who is supporting the leave campaing: Robert Murdoch and his media empire, the rich who deny their workers their rights, the bankers who hope to earn more money by abusing a faulty system they created and which was responsible for the financial crash.

No, the EU is not the solution for every problem and we seriously need to rethink the structure. However, leaving won't solve any problems because what happens in Europe affects the UK as well, if we want it or not. Only by remaining UK be a part of the changes required to lead the EU to a prosperous future for the UK, its citizens and all people in Europe.
Member states leaving, or even seriously threatening to leave, may help with this "rethink the structure". So far, nothing else did get through the thick skins of the bureaucrats. Maybe even tear it down and build something better instead (I know, not gonna happen, but I can dream).
low rated
The problems that plague Europe are kind of like the ones we have in the United States. Globalism and international screw-you agreements done in the name of "trade" or "unity." Ours comes in the form of NAFTA (courtesy of the traitor Bill Clinton who lied about his stance when he was still a presidential candidate in 1992), these one-sided trade deals with mainland China, and other deals like the TPP which now has "fast track" that will give the president dictatorial powers over foreign trade.

If I was citizen in the UK, I would vote to abandon the EU especially with the crap Chancellor "Angie" Merkel has been pulling off on both her own country with these third world degenerate migrants masquerading as refugees and the rest of Europe. Plus, the EU seems to give its members a direct say on the internal matters of other countries thereby undermining sovereignty and the people of such countries. I have seen complaints made by UK citizens like how they did not choose to have their job opportunities taken away by migrants or how they did not choose to have a flood of third world migrants showing up and getting benefits at taxpayer expense when such migrants did not pay even a penny towards it. I would definitely be apart of UKIP if I was a UK citizen.

By the way, the guy who supposedly killed that Labor Party politician Jo Cox has given me hope for the people of the UK. It was way more effective than voting that is for sure. The old saying claims that if voting made a difference, "they'd make it illegal" which is no wonder assassinations are illegal as well as military revolts.
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infinite9: The problems that plague Europe are kind of like the ones we have in the United States. Globalism and international screw-you agreements done in the name of "trade" or "unity." Ours comes in the form of NAFTA (courtesy of the traitor Bill Clinton who lied about his stance when he was still a presidential candidate in 1992), these one-sided trade deals with mainland China, and other deals like the TPP which now has "fast track" that will give the president dictatorial powers over foreign trade.

If I was citizen in the UK, I would vote to abandon the EU especially with the crap Chancellor "Angie" Merkel has been pulling off on both her own country with these third world degenerate migrants masquerading as refugees and the rest of Europe. Plus, the EU seems to give its members a direct say on the internal matters of other countries thereby undermining sovereignty and the people of such countries. I have seen complaints made by UK citizens like how they did not choose to have their job opportunities taken away by migrants or how they did not choose to have a flood of third world migrants showing up and getting benefits at taxpayer expense when such migrants did not pay even a penny towards it. I would definitely be apart of UKIP if I was a UK citizen.

By the way, the guy who supposedly killed that Labor Party politician Jo Cox has given me hope for the people of the UK. It was way more effective than voting that is for sure. The old saying claims that if voting made a difference, "they'd make it illegal" which is no wonder assassinations are illegal as well as military revolts.
Here we go again.
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Treasure: Well I dunno but that's how I felt when the Scottish did the same thing - I was like "But the British have been oppressing them for so many centuries, why would they want to stay with their overlords? Freaking cowards!"
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Atlantico: Same here, I come from a very small country which demanded and got its independence from Denmark in 1918. We were given a choice, we said "YES" to independence, even if we didn't know for sure what the future might bring.

There were no guarantees, there were a lot of unknowns, but none of that matters when you get to choose your own course.

It was sad to see the Scottish people bow down like that. Just sad. There's no way that their union with England and Wales is better than making your own way in the world.

PS: we weren't oppressed or anything by Denmark, it was never a question of that. Rather a question of governing your own future, to better express the will of the people and an amicable divorce was offered. We said yes, Scotland said no. Sad.
For my country, Independence is a lie. Independent is for the leaders and politicians. For the common people, they trade one master for another.

We are poised to follow Iceland bankruptcy, the government is selling land to China a few times settle its outstanding debt
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Atlantico: Same here, I come from a very small country which demanded and got its independence from Denmark in 1918. We were given a choice, we said "YES" to independence, even if we didn't know for sure what the future might bring.

There were no guarantees, there were a lot of unknowns, but none of that matters when you get to choose your own course.

It was sad to see the Scottish people bow down like that. Just sad. There's no way that their union with England and Wales is better than making your own way in the world.

PS: we weren't oppressed or anything by Denmark, it was never a question of that. Rather a question of governing your own future, to better express the will of the people and an amicable divorce was offered. We said yes, Scotland said no. Sad.
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Gnostic: For my country, Independence is a lie. Independent is for the leaders and politicians. For the common people, they trade one master for another.

We are poised to follow Iceland bankruptcy, the government is selling land to China a few times settle its outstanding debt
Bankruptcy is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. It certainly was for us. And the government is not a constant.

Independence is a "lie" if you think it is any different from being a responsible adult, there are obligations and responsibilities even for independent nations. If you think independence is being able to do what you want, when you want, well... then it's a lie.

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blakstar: I'd like to see what the political fallout of all this in/out campaign actually turns out to be.

The Government wishes to pass various acts of mass surveillance, that the ECHR has already said is against human rights, so if we end up remaining in the EU, well...

It would seem that that the two are essentially in conflict, but then I've practically given up trying to work out the logic (if any) of anything political at the moment.
The ECHR is not connected to the EU, and is not an EU institution. The UK chooses to be bound by it by its own laws. Whether or not the UK stays in the EU or not, doesn't affect the relationship between ECHR and the UK.
Post edited June 17, 2016 by Atlantico
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Gnostic: For my country, Independence is a lie. Independent is for the leaders and politicians. For the common people, they trade one master for another.

We are poised to follow Iceland bankruptcy, the government is selling land to China a few times settle its outstanding debt
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Atlantico: Bankruptcy is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. It certainly was for us. And the government is not a constant.

Independence is a "lie" if you think it is any different from being a responsible adult, there are obligations and responsibilities even for independent nations. If you think independence is being able to do what you want, when you want, well... then it's a lie.
What you are describing is individual independence. What has individual independence have to do with group independence.

You did not even consider that in some countries, the party / leaders that the majority voted for can be ousted.
Like Thailand, Malaysia, Middle east etc

How are you going to take responsibility for that? Rebel and topple the government?
Darn, my ancestor should have make the government make do without the military like Iceland. That would make rebellion much easier.
I think the referendum tomorrow will end with slightly above 55% against Brexit and slightly below 45% for it and I think this will somewhat accurately reflect the current situation in Britain.

What I don't like is that the campaigning became so dirty in the end. Whenever you favor emotions over arguments you are sure to hurt people. Always someone gets hurt. It leaves a bad taste.

What I like is that you actually can leave the EU. This is a great right. Try that in any other big country consisting of many different groups of people like USA, Russia, China, India, ... and you'll get the shitty end of the stick pretty fast.

Whatever you say about the EU, an option to leave is actually a great thing.

What I think is that the EU needs reforms urgently, mostly much more democracy and representation and secondly a balanced approach to central power vs. local government. This is not simple but it needs to be done. Big changes are coming (either way).

I don't think Britain is better alone, even with the current state of the EU. Nationalism is not the answer to any problem we have.

What I really like about the EU is keeping the peace (100 years ago Europeans just killed each other) and offering free movement across borders and free work.

While this may seem like more competition at first glance it also offers more opportunity and this in the end is even increasing the welfare (otherwise big countries like USA, Russia, China, India would really suffer, wouldn't they).

Just that I can visit Britain without a VISA and that I can look for work there (and Britains can look for work in Germany as well) is a really great thing - and that is (plus the peace thing) what the EU is all about in my eyes. Basically I feel like I have a right to be in Britain (or France or Spain or Italy or Sweden) and that Britains have a right to be here all that. Without the EU, we don't have all that. It means less freedom to move and less opportunities for everyone.

The Brexit campaign is not aimed at improving the EU at all (which I could totally understand), it is a simple Britain for the Britains thing where everyone from abroad is seen as something completely different. I really don't like this.

Anyway what about the inter-country-marriages (if such a word exists)? For example if a Britain marries a German. How will they fit in culturally (Britain First??) and job-related and tax-related if Brexit comes.

Anyway, if surprisingly Brexit will happen, the only good thing for me would be that I can then take them as an example for the next 20 years of how to screw up (because that's what I think will happen). Not much to look forward to in my eyes.

So please Britains, don't do it, please. (Nationalism is going nowhere.)
Post edited June 22, 2016 by Trilarion
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Trilarion: What I think is that the EU needs reforms urgently, mostly much more democracy and representation and secondly a balanced approach to central power vs. local government. This is not simple but it needs to be done. Big changes are coming (either way).

I don't think Britain is better alone, even with the current state of the EU. Nationalism is not the answer to any problem we have.
Any changes are only happening because the European Union is in its own self-induced death throes, and exiting the EU, or threatening to, has been the only real way to "reform" it. By definition the establishment of the EU was a rejection of National and Local governance in favor of centralized collectivism. A little more reforms aren't going to fix the inherent problems of centralization and Brussels created and imposed EU Laws. Individual societies, through their National governments, are always going to be better served and represented by their own governments. Always.

Britain is better alone than in the EU as it was created. Any nation is. "Nationalism" for so many Europeans is an ever present boogyman that is wheeled out to deny denigrate entirely legitimate desires for real representation and decreasing the coercive imposition of foreign interests, through laws and regulations, over the real interests and needs of the people. The falsely used "Nationalism" is actually something other than mere patriotism or the promotion of some vague notion of national superiority.


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Trilarion: What I really like about the EU is keeping the peace (100 years ago Europeans just killed each other) and offering free movement across borders and free work.

While this may seem like more competition at first glance it also offers more opportunity and this in the end is even increasing the welfare (otherwise big countries like USA, Russia, China, India would really suffer, wouldn't they).

Just that I can visit Britain without a VISA and that I can look for work there (and Britains can look for work in Germany as well) is a really great thing - and that is (plus the peace thing) what the EU is all about in my eyes. Basically I feel like I have a right to be in Britain (or France or Spain or Italy or Sweden) and that Britains have a right to be here all that. Without the EU, we don't have all that. It means less freedom to move and less opportunities for everyone.
This is really about you and your self-interests then. Not the interests of the British people if they desire to curtail the massive influx of EU imposed and directed legal immigrants. Restricting immigration means more opportunities FOR THE PEOPLE LIVING IN THAT COUNTRY. Are the British people really expected to care for the demands of foreigners to British job markets over themselves and their own children? Or the laws and regulations of the EU that hurt British industries and remove cultural mores, protections, and legal standards in favor of ideals imposed from other countries? How is it that promoting specific British desires and needs over the collective needs of the entire EU is mere "Nationalism", while those pushing some "Pan-European identity" in favor of a supra-national superstate is not?? Why is that EU promotion not merely just "SuperNationalism" for EU Supranationalism?


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Trilarion: The Brexit campaign is not aimed at improving the EU at all (which I could totally understand), it is a simple Britain for the Britains thing where everyone from abroad is seen as something completely different. I really don't like this.
Good. The entire purpose and existence of the British government is supposedly to serve the interests of its own BRITISH citizenry, not the citizens of foreign countries. Why shouldn't their needs supercede yours? Try doing the actual hard work of reforming or replacing the governments or policies of your own countries rather than seek to benefit from British hard work and success that results from the very different British systems and government that better favors economic prosperity than your own.
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Trilarion: What I think is that the EU needs reforms urgently, mostly much more democracy and representation and secondly a balanced approach to central power vs. local government. This is not simple but it needs to be done. Big changes are coming (either way).

I don't think Britain is better alone, even with the current state of the EU. Nationalism is not the answer to any problem we have.
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seaspanky: Any changes are only happening because the European Union is in its own self-induced death throes, and exiting the EU, or threatening to, has been the only real way to "reform" it. By definition the establishment of the EU was a rejection of National and Local governance in favor of centralized collectivism. A little more reforms aren't going to fix the inherent problems of centralization and Brussels created and imposed EU Laws. Individual societies, through their National governments, are always going to be better served and represented by their own governments. Always.

Britain is better alone than in the EU as it was created. Any nation is. "Nationalism" for so many Europeans is an ever present boogyman that is wheeled out to deny denigrate entirely legitimate desires for real representation and decreasing the coercive imposition of foreign interests, through laws and regulations, over the real interests and needs of the people. The falsely used "Nationalism" is actually something other than mere patriotism or the promotion of some vague notion of national superiority.

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Trilarion: What I really like about the EU is keeping the peace (100 years ago Europeans just killed each other) and offering free movement across borders and free work.

While this may seem like more competition at first glance it also offers more opportunity and this in the end is even increasing the welfare (otherwise big countries like USA, Russia, China, India would really suffer, wouldn't they).

Just that I can visit Britain without a VISA and that I can look for work there (and Britains can look for work in Germany as well) is a really great thing - and that is (plus the peace thing) what the EU is all about in my eyes. Basically I feel like I have a right to be in Britain (or France or Spain or Italy or Sweden) and that Britains have a right to be here all that. Without the EU, we don't have all that. It means less freedom to move and less opportunities for everyone.
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seaspanky: This is really about you and your self-interests then. Not the interests of the British people if they desire to curtail the massive influx of EU imposed and directed legal immigrants. Restricting immigration means more opportunities FOR THE PEOPLE LIVING IN THAT COUNTRY. Are the British people really expected to care for the demands of foreigners to British job markets over themselves and their own children? Or the laws and regulations of the EU that hurt British industries and remove cultural mores, protections, and legal standards in favor of ideals imposed from other countries? How is it that promoting specific British desires and needs over the collective needs of the entire EU is mere "Nationalism", while those pushing some "Pan-European identity" in favor of a supra-national superstate is not?? Why is that EU promotion not merely just "SuperNationalism" for EU Supranationalism?

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Trilarion: The Brexit campaign is not aimed at improving the EU at all (which I could totally understand), it is a simple Britain for the Britains thing where everyone from abroad is seen as something completely different. I really don't like this.
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seaspanky: Good. The entire purpose and existence of the British government is supposedly to serve the interests of its own BRITISH citizenry, not the citizens of foreign countries. Why shouldn't their needs supercede yours? Try doing the actual hard work of reforming or replacing the governments or policies of your own countries rather than seek to benefit from British hard work and success that results from the very different British systems and government that better favors economic prosperity than your own.
you make some good points :D
I think the old EU dinosaur selfelected memebrs in Brussels wanted to copycat the USA, they wanted to create a USE: United States of Europe, they figured, if USA can pull it of with that many states, why cant we?
But they cant it wont work will never work, as for 1 big EU police/army? that would be a laugh.

Btw they consider UK a milkcow , yes they actually do, google on it, and laugh, seems UK is the biggest milkcow, the germany, another one, and we the poor dutch are also a nice milkingcow , so its good to know UK wont leave, cause otehrwise we would be the next milkingcow.

Anyway, imho you cant compare anything to the USA, its a unique kind and it cant be duplicated , cause there is only one USA.
EU should be EEC again like we used to, not 1 flag and 1 anthem, no ruelrs in Brussels and evry country rules it selves like in the EEC, and no membership fees every week.
Post edited June 22, 2016 by gamesfreak64
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fronzelneekburm: Hallelujah, Hallelujah!
I suppose as someone in China, watching the Yen and other currencies soar is a thing to celebrate.
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fronzelneekburm: Hallelujah, Hallelujah!
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Darvond: I suppose as someone in China, watching the Yen and other currencies soar is a thing to celebrate.
Hmm, guess it's a good time to finally place an order on those DVDs that have been rotting away in my amazon.co.uk shopping basket for half a decade...
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Darvond: I suppose as someone in China, watching the Yen and other currencies soar is a thing to celebrate.
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fronzelneekburm: Hmm, guess it's a good time to finally place an order on those DVDs that have been rotting away in my amazon.co.uk shopping basket for half a decade...
LOL, What I just thought too :o) Most of my Blu-ray collection was imported from UK back when the Pound was cheaper.
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-cerberus-: Congrats from Belgium, UK! :) May others follow in your footsteps. The EU must fall.
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Vitek: And be replaced by what?

Independent states bickering with each other with less common ground than before?
insignificant, independant states, with hardline nationalits in power, negating the lessons learnt from 2 world wars and 45 years of Soviet dominance for the Eastern part , negating the demographics of our insignificance vs juggernaughts like India or China. A dream for some, a nightmare for many
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Vitek: And be replaced by what?

Independent states bickering with each other with less common ground than before?
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Phc7006: insignificant, independant states, with hardline nationalits in power, negating the lessons learnt from 2 world wars and 45 years of Soviet dominance for the Eastern part , negating the demographics of our insignificance vs juggernaughts like India or China. A dream for some, a nightmare for many
That is a result from the majority of citizens looking for answers to their problems and hope. The lesson we haven't learnt from World War 2 is that it's dangerous for politicians to forget they're there for the people.