Posted March 21, 2020
I do not want to delve into the political here, so have tried to stay to the historical facts as we know them...
fronzelneekburm: Yah, sure. Then explain why China declared war on Vietnam in the late 70s, after the Americans had pulled out. During the period of the Vietnam Conflict, North Vietnam's major backer was the Soviet Union, but not far behind them was China. Both countries had active support roles aiding North Vietnam (in fact China was instrumental in the French Indochina War that precipitated the Vietnam Conflict providing Vietnamese insurgents with weaponry, food, and training. Throughout the late 50's to the early 70's China actively sent military, social, and political advisors to the Communist Vietnamese (at one point China had sent over 300,000 People's Liberation Army troops to aid North Vietnam).
-- But after the Vietnam Conflict --
Vietnam kept forces in Cambodia.
China demanded they leave Cambodia. The Vietnamese forces did not... and that precipitated the Sino-Vietnamese War. The Chinese installed the Khmer Rouge, but Vietnam's consistent attacks -- and continually worry that the Soviet Union (who had become antagonistic toward China since the Sino-Soviet Split, a difference in Communist doctrine starting in the mid 50's) )would aid Vietnam -- made it impossible for China to keep their interests in Cambodia.
Many have a tendency to think of communist countries as monolithic... all experiencing "group think"... but like any other system, their are dissenters, differences of opinion, and even breakdowns in relations... and wars.
fronzelneekburm: Yah, sure. Actually, the North fought for national sovereignty, whereas the South was nothing but a bitch state to Western powers. What eventually became the Vietnam Conflict / War was actually started in teh fading days of WWII by a revolution against the French colonization of Vietnam.
Ho Chi Minh -- although a communist -- fought alongside the OSS in ousting the Japanese from the region during WWII. The OSS decided to work with Ho Chi Minh because he was seen as more nationalist than communist and sympathetic toward the US. In fact Ho Chi Minh would on more than one occasion ask for the US's aid because he saw the US as a kindred revolutionary spirit (he would refernce more-then-once the American Revolutionary War / War of Independence). It was only after the US refused to aid him in ousting the French that Ho Chi Minh sided more closely with the communists.
MartiusR: Vietnam war communists in North Vietnam killed during so called "land reform" about 172 thousands people. fronzelneekburm: As opposed to the 1-4 million (depending on your sauce) dead Vietnamese - mostly civilians - the American "liberators" had killed. I think we can all agree that the Vietnam Conflict / War had a terrible cost for all involved... and if you look close enough at any war you can find many villians on every / any side.
I'm reminded of a documentary where a US soldier and a North Vietnamese soldier met in the early 2000's. They had been in the same battles, lost many friends, and embraced as "brothers"... and cried.
This is the reality of war.
As we play games about real people in real conflicts, it's great to have fun, but spend a moment to think about the real conflicts... and maybe read a little on them. Often they are more complex than commonly portrayed.
-- But after the Vietnam Conflict --
Vietnam kept forces in Cambodia.
China demanded they leave Cambodia. The Vietnamese forces did not... and that precipitated the Sino-Vietnamese War. The Chinese installed the Khmer Rouge, but Vietnam's consistent attacks -- and continually worry that the Soviet Union (who had become antagonistic toward China since the Sino-Soviet Split, a difference in Communist doctrine starting in the mid 50's) )would aid Vietnam -- made it impossible for China to keep their interests in Cambodia.
Many have a tendency to think of communist countries as monolithic... all experiencing "group think"... but like any other system, their are dissenters, differences of opinion, and even breakdowns in relations... and wars.
Ho Chi Minh -- although a communist -- fought alongside the OSS in ousting the Japanese from the region during WWII. The OSS decided to work with Ho Chi Minh because he was seen as more nationalist than communist and sympathetic toward the US. In fact Ho Chi Minh would on more than one occasion ask for the US's aid because he saw the US as a kindred revolutionary spirit (he would refernce more-then-once the American Revolutionary War / War of Independence). It was only after the US refused to aid him in ousting the French that Ho Chi Minh sided more closely with the communists.
I'm reminded of a documentary where a US soldier and a North Vietnamese soldier met in the early 2000's. They had been in the same battles, lost many friends, and embraced as "brothers"... and cried.
This is the reality of war.
As we play games about real people in real conflicts, it's great to have fun, but spend a moment to think about the real conflicts... and maybe read a little on them. Often they are more complex than commonly portrayed.
Post edited March 21, 2020 by kai2
