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General discussionA look back at Planescape: Torment as it celebrates its 20th anniversary(52 posts)(52 posts)
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Posted December 12, 2019
As we get ready to close out on a decade, we thought it would be fun to look at a game that is about to celebrate two decades of existence - Planescape: Torment. The roleplaying game from Black Isle Studios first released on December 12, 1999, and helped define the isometric RPG genre.

Planescape: Torment took the Infinity Engine - made popular by the original Baldur’s Gate - and tweaked it to deliver a story-driven game set in the Dungeons and Dragons’ universe of Planescape. During your journey as The Nameless One, you’ll meet other characters and try to solve the mystery of your immortal past. Being immortal sounds cool, but there’s a catch: each time you die you forget your past memories.

The game was met without much fanfare when it released, but many critics stated at the time that it was the best RPG to release that year. You can even find it on many “Top Games” lists thanks to its unique story and robust in-game worlds. Now, the game is considered a cult classic and if you are a fan of the genre, it is absolutely a must-play.



What helped set Planescape: Torment apart from other RPGs of the time
During its development, Black Isle Studios helped differentiate the title from other fantasy roleplaying games by removing many of the staples of RPGs of the time - there are no elves, goblins, or other typical “high fantasy” elements in this title. Instead, the game’s designer referred to the title as an “avant-garde" fantasy. It also removed the whole “save the world” element found in many titles and instead focused on you, the player, and your efforts to figure out just who you are as The Nameless One.

Much of the love for this title came from that unique approach to the genre. Whereas titles like Fallout (released in the same time frame) and the aforementioned Baldur’s Gate focused on being a savior, Planescape: Torment wanted to tell a story to the player and challenge the status quo of the genre as a whole. Chris Avellone, the lead designer of the title, tells Vice in an interview, “I think it was that the setting encouraged a philosophical/thoughtful approach to questing and exploration so that in itself may have given it an innate sense of maturity than simply hacking orcs with swords."



Planescape: Torment’s impact on the genre
This new way of looking at the genre inspired future RPGs to look at themselves and the stories they were trying to tell and we can still see that influence in various RPGs today - isometric or otherwise. Neverwinter Nights 2, and specifically the Mask of the Betrayer expansion, sees a heavy influence from the title. Divinity: Original Sin 2 and Tyranny, as well.

While Divinity: Original Sin 2 might have more fighting than Planescape: Torment, it still very much focuses on the stories and the characters and not just an overarching theme of good versus evil. If fantasy isn’t necessarily your cup of tea, then Disco Elysium is another great isometric choice that highlights characters and stories over pure action or grand adventure.

If sci-fi is more your style, then some of those philosophical and story elements of Planescape: Torment can be found even in Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II.



There is a spiritual successor to Planescape: Torment and it released somewhat recently
A sequel to Planescape: Torment began development around 2013 and was funded on Kickstarter after reaching its funding goals within an astounding 6 hours of launching the campaign. Torment: Tides of Numenera was eventually released in February of 2017. The story differs a bit from the original, but it features Chris Avellone as the lead designer (just like PST) and features many of the same influences as the original.

While Planescape: Torment may be considered a cult classic, it’s hard to not see just how influential it was on the genre and gamers in general. Not only did a spiritual successor reach its funding goal in almost record time, but we are still seeing story-driven isometric RPGs being released today that focus on the player, the story, and the world around them.

So, if you are looking for your next great RPG adventure and haven’t had the chance to experience Planescape: Torment, there’s no time like its 20th anniversary!

What do you think? Have you played the game? Did you feel it was as influential as we did? Any great memories from the game? Comment down below and share your stories with us!
Posted December 13, 2019
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supp99: While planescape is memorable, the pacing of the game is slow and the combat is ass. The dialogue tree based nature of Infinity engine inspired western RPG's needs to die. The mass effect style conversation system is the right direction.
Please don't! It's the ME style dialogue that I really never want to have to deal with, yet sadly it's becoming commonplace and marring even games that could otherwise be great.
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toxicTom: the one weakness of PS:T - if you want to know and understand (and get the "real" ending) you're practically nailed to play mage and level INT and WIS.
But doesn't that also make sense? If you want to know and understand everything, and get the... wise ending and not some ... harsher / more... violent one, you should play the character that focuses on knowledge and wisdom.
Posted December 13, 2019
In reply to somebody above: Of course I have the original games. I bought all of them. It was the main reason I signed up to GOG all those years ago.

But that doesn't mean it is right or fair that everybody who didn't buy them, or are too young, should not have that option now. The base price is doubled for a worse product, and with sales taken into account, as nicely laid out on page 1, the price is 4x-5x more expensive than when it was possible to buy the original games -- often at 75-80% off.

My main beef with these talentless hacks isn't the price, though. They are vultures who are making a living off of the great names of these old classics, and to add insult to injury, the classics have been banned from sale, so the talentless hacks have a monopoly on the market.

It's a damn shame that people do not have the option to enjoy this marvellous game (or the others, like Baldurs Gate), without paying these vultures first.

Therefore I'm glad I already owned the games and the thundercunts haven't received a single cent or any other currency from me. It's more than they deserve.

Time will tell what happens with Baldurs Gate 3. But since it won't be produced by these useless nobodies, it may actually turn out good. Let's hope so.
Posted December 13, 2019
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Pangaea666: In reply to somebody above: Of course I have the original games. I bought all of them. It was the main reason I signed up to GOG all those years ago.

But that doesn't mean it is right or fair that everybody who didn't buy them, or are too young, should not have that option now. The base price is doubled for a worse product, and with sales taken into account, as nicely laid out on page 1, the price is 4x-5x more expensive than when it was possible to buy the original games -- often at 75-80% off.

My main beef with these talentless hacks isn't the price, though. They are vultures who are making a living off of the great names of these old classics, and to add insult to injury, the classics have been banned from sale, so the talentless hacks have a monopoly on the market.

It's a damn shame that people do not have the option to enjoy this marvellous game (or the others, like Baldurs Gate), without paying these vultures first.

Therefore I'm glad I already owned the games and the thundercunts haven't received a single cent or any other currency from me. It's more than they deserve.

Time will tell what happens with Baldurs Gate 3. But since it won't be produced by these useless nobodies, it may actually turn out good. Let's hope so.
I am by no means a Beamdog defender, but I can't join the pack of users who are constantly slandering them and calling them idiots (or talentless hacks as you have called them). Somebody even stated above that it's a worse game. It's all in the eyes of the beholder. I played both the classical version and the EE one and I can honestly say that today I wouldn't be able to play the original anymore. Even though EE doesn't do spectacular improvements, it's still visually better than the old one. Plus it ads extra content that I personally have enjoyed (I repeat myself here... PERSONALLY, that's the key word here).

So I try to look at it as objectively as I can. Having the choice to start playing today the old game and the EE one, I wouldn't start the old one. It doesn't add anything extra to the gaming experience that EE doesn't add.

At any rate, I don't know any young gamer who would pick up BG 1 or 2 (EE or classical version) and play it today more than a few hours. There may be, but I have the feeling that they are a very small niche.

Back to the topic at hand. I am also a fan of multiple options, so I too would prefer to see BG classic available on sale separate from the EE version (even though it wouldn't affect me personally at all). But realistically, I don't think sales would increase. On the other hand, I guess there is a license issue.

As much as I would like too, I have a feeling BG3 won't be a success. At least not among veteran BG players.
Posted December 13, 2019
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Pangaea666: In reply to somebody above: Of course I have the original games. I bought all of them. It was the main reason I signed up to GOG all those years ago.

But that doesn't mean it is right or fair that everybody who didn't buy them, or are too young, should not have that option now. The base price is doubled for a worse product, and with sales taken into account, as nicely laid out on page 1, the price is 4x-5x more expensive than when it was possible to buy the original games -- often at 75-80% off.

My main beef with these talentless hacks isn't the price, though. They are vultures who are making a living off of the great names of these old classics, and to add insult to injury, the classics have been banned from sale, so the talentless hacks have a monopoly on the market.

It's a damn shame that people do not have the option to enjoy this marvellous game (or the others, like Baldurs Gate), without paying these vultures first.

Therefore I'm glad I already owned the games and the thundercunts haven't received a single cent or any other currency from me. It's more than they deserve.

Time will tell what happens with Baldurs Gate 3. But since it won't be produced by these useless nobodies, it may actually turn out good. Let's hope so.
I agree with your overall reasoning. That’s why I refuse to buy the EE unless it goes on sale for 5.99 or less.
Posted December 14, 2019
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GOG.com: What do you think? Have you played the game? Did you feel it was as influential as we did? Any great memories from the game? Comment down below and share your stories with us!
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supp99: Planescape is over-rated at this point, infinity engine RPG's have been surpassed a long time ago. There lack of combat and being mostly visual novels with really bad auto combat for the reflex challenged is why Pillars struggled sales wise, there was no fallback when pillars world turned out to be boring and the infinity engine inspired combat largely sucked balls.

I'd easily take Eye of the beholder 2, Lands of lore 1 and Legends of Grimrock 1 over infinity engine garbage. Mass effect 1 and 2 are easily better RPG's from a story standpoint then Planescape 1 in terms of execution and presentation.

While planescape is memorable, the pacing of the game is slow and the combat is ass. The dialogue tree based nature of Infinity engine inspired western RPG's needs to die. The mass effect style conversation system is the right direction.

Now this doesn't mean mass effect didn't have any problems, but I've always hated biowares janky autocombat jank. Most RPG's on the PC' and MMO's combat systems have always sucked to cater to casuals because RPG players tend to be the most reflex challenged.
Great review! Planescape Torment was already one of my favorite games all time, but after reading this I like it even more.
Posted December 14, 2019
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supp99: While planescape is memorable, the pacing of the game is slow and the combat is ass. The dialogue tree based nature of Infinity engine inspired western RPG's needs to die. The mass effect style conversation system is the right direction.

Now this doesn't mean mass effect didn't have any problems, but I've always hated biowares janky autocombat jank. Most RPG's on the PC' and MMO's combat systems have always sucked to cater to casuals because RPG players tend to be the most reflex challenged.
The "right direction" towards removing player immersion and freedom? Reading the rest of your post, I'm not seeing how simplifying the dialogue jives with the criticisms of simplified combat. If combat in these games "sucked" because it caters to "reflex challenged" gamers, then why not leave the dialogue trees the way they are but improve the combat (or better yet, have different options available for classic combat, arcade-style combat, etc)?

I submit that the move to the newer Bioware style is about as casual as it gets when it comes to dialogue. It certainly erodes away from roleplaying by limiting the options ("you can be a nice hero, or you can be a snarky hero"), and even casual players have complained that their character acts differently than they intended when they picked whichever dialogue option, since it only accounts for very narrow possibilities.

As for Planescape itself, its contributions to the genre, to gaming, and maybe even to writing, speak for themselves. I'm also a big fan of Torment: Tides of Numenera which obviously wasn't possible without Planescape paving the way. However, despite my love for it, I am not stating Torment is better than Planescape :)
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Posted December 14, 2019
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supp99: While planescape is memorable, the pacing of the game is slow and the combat is ass. The dialogue tree based nature of Infinity engine inspired western RPG's needs to die. The mass effect style conversation system is the right direction.

Now this doesn't mean mass effect didn't have any problems, but I've always hated biowares janky autocombat jank. Most RPG's on the PC' and MMO's combat systems have always sucked to cater to casuals because RPG players tend to be the most reflex challenged.
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rjbuffchix: The "right direction" towards removing player immersion and freedom? Reading the rest of your post, I'm not seeing how simplifying the dialogue jives with the criticisms of simplified combat. If combat in these games "sucked" because it caters to "reflex challenged" gamers, then why not leave the dialogue trees the way they are but improve the combat (or better yet, have different options available for classic combat, arcade-style combat, etc)?
The reason pillars struggled sales wise is because it aped biowares infinity engine games. You don't seem to realize that planescale torment was a financial failure for the publisher, sure it was a great story. But it was a bad videogame financially. I've thought long and hard about the failure of interplay and everyone praising planescape doesn't seem to understand if you want more planescapes they need to be economically viable. So I've thought long and hard about bioware and biowares games since the 90's.

I've always had problems with the passive almost non game like nature of western rpg's on the PC where they are merely visual novels for D&D grognards with bad programming skills. This is why mass effect 1's combat system was ripped out, it used the same stale bad party based combat that infinity engine games did.

I'd been waiting years for someone to tell bioware off and their diehard D&D passive grognards to learn that your D&D fantasy wrapped in a piece of software is not a videogame, it's entertaining but there's no real videogame there. We saw this with tyranny and Pillars financially "flopping" giving obsidian great pause.

That's the reality, since I've been working on coming up to with a solution to biowares bad combat systems and IE games since I've always had problems with the passive combat system's in RPG's since they cater to basically non gamers.
Posted December 14, 2019
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Planescaper: <-- nuff said
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Mortius1: Aren't you supposed to introduce yourself as Adahn?
Those times are behind me. All his useless stuff made me realize I was on the wrong track. I have embraced lawfulness now to become somthing greater (and with +2 Con).
Posted December 14, 2019
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rjbuffchix: The "right direction" towards removing player immersion and freedom? Reading the rest of your post, I'm not seeing how simplifying the dialogue jives with the criticisms of simplified combat. If combat in these games "sucked" because it caters to "reflex challenged" gamers, then why not leave the dialogue trees the way they are but improve the combat (or better yet, have different options available for classic combat, arcade-style combat, etc)?
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supp99: The reason pillars struggled sales wise is because it aped biowares infinity engine games. You don't seem to realize that planescale torment was a financial failure for the publisher, sure it was a great story. But it was a bad videogame financially. I've thought long and hard about the failure of interplay and everyone praising planescape doesn't seem to understand if you want more planescapes they need to be economically viable. So I've thought long and hard about bioware and biowares games since the 90's.

I've always had problems with the passive almost non game like nature of western rpg's on the PC where they are merely visual novels for D&D grognards with bad programming skills. This is why mass effect 1's combat system was ripped out, it used the same stale bad party based combat that infinity engine games did.

I'd been waiting years for someone to tell bioware off and their diehard D&D passive grognards to learn that your D&D fantasy wrapped in a piece of software is not a videogame, it's entertaining but there's no real videogame there. We saw this with tyranny and Pillars financially "flopping" giving obsidian great pause.

That's the reality, since I've been working on coming up to with a solution to biowares bad combat systems and IE games since I've always had problems with the passive combat system's in RPG's since they cater to basically non gamers.
I'm talking about dialogue. You said earlier that Mass Effect style conversation system is "the right direction". Why? I say that style is massively dumbed down compared to Infinity Engine RPG style conversation system. That has nothing to do with the combat in either type of game. The way that "combat" comes in, is me pointing out your criticism is inconsistent. In other words, if you are against dumbed-down combat, then why are you "for" dumbed-down dialogue?
Posted December 14, 2019
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supp99: The reason pillars struggled sales wise is because it aped biowares infinity engine games. You don't seem to realize that planescale torment was a financial failure for the publisher, sure it was a great story. But it was a bad videogame financially. I've thought long and hard about the failure of interplay and everyone praising planescape doesn't seem to understand if you want more planescapes they need to be economically viable. So I've thought long and hard about bioware and biowares games since the 90's.

I've always had problems with the passive almost non game like nature of western rpg's on the PC where they are merely visual novels for D&D grognards with bad programming skills. This is why mass effect 1's combat system was ripped out, it used the same stale bad party based combat that infinity engine games did.

I'd been waiting years for someone to tell bioware off and their diehard D&D passive grognards to learn that your D&D fantasy wrapped in a piece of software is not a videogame, it's entertaining but there's no real videogame there. We saw this with tyranny and Pillars financially "flopping" giving obsidian great pause.

That's the reality, since I've been working on coming up to with a solution to biowares bad combat systems and IE games since I've always had problems with the passive combat system's in RPG's since they cater to basically non gamers.
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rjbuffchix: I'm talking about dialogue. You said earlier that Mass Effect style conversation system is "the right direction". Why? I say that style is massively dumbed down compared to Infinity Engine RPG style conversation system. That has nothing to do with the combat in either type of game. The way that "combat" comes in, is me pointing out your criticism is inconsistent. In other words, if you are against dumbed-down combat, then why are you "for" dumbed-down dialogue?
I agree overall with your assessment
Unfortunately a lot of gamers nowadays, usually in the younger age group playing mostly video console games, because they are more into fast action, real time gaming, they tend to forget what the “RPG” concept is all about. Without real meaningful dialogue - a very important element of the RPG genre - The game morphs into something else that cannot be called pure “RPG” and should be in a different category in my opinion.
Posted December 14, 2019
Nice read! Please keep these articles coming!! Mod spotlights, interviews and any kind of reflection on the world of computer games are welcome too!
Posted December 14, 2019
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Leroux: I think a lot of what made PS:T interesting to play is also due to the Planescape setting by David Cook, and that I didn't know it before. Admittedly, the writing is pretty good,
Yes and no. Did you play the D&D Planescape setting? the pen and paper RPG? It came before the PC game Planescape: Torment, and it is a suggestive setting, but also the PC game fleshed out the promise that came within the Planescape Box (a cool boz containing all the manuals and guides that you needed to play Planescape) made the source material alive, built upon it and took it to another level.

To make a comparison, it was not completely unlike to what Frank Darabont made with a certain novella by Stephen King titled Rita Hayworth and the Shawshank Redemption. Now we have a book and a film. Both are good, one is awesome.

The story of the Nameless One happens in this cool setting, and it is the merit of the game makers. They also dared making a game that was so different from what had been done before, heavy on philosophical themes and a deep story, instead of the approaches that had worked well before, like on Baldur's Gate (a coming-of-age story with combat) and Icewind Dale (party combat, light on story).
Posted December 14, 2019
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Carradice:
I fully agree, I'm just saying usually all the credit goes to Chris Avellone alone, but David Cook's D&D setting has a big part in what makes PS:T great to play as well. It was already a very cool and original setting before, and the game made it come alive and more known. That doesn't diminish the merit and achievement of C.A. and Black isle, like you say.

I did not play or know the setting before, which made discovering it in game all the more fun, but I had a look at the P&P books afterwards, and I like them a lot, too. The ideas, the writing, and the art by Toni DiTerlizzi as well. It's all pretty unique, completely different from something like Forgotten Realms. And IMO it was pretty daring to create and publish the P&P system, too, but maybe you're right and it's even more risky in a videogame.
Posted December 15, 2019
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Carradice:
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Leroux: I fully agree, I'm just saying usually all the credit goes to Chris Avellone alone, but David Cook's D&D setting has a big part in what makes PS:T great to play as well. It was already a very cool and original setting before, and the game made it come alive and more known. That doesn't diminish the merit and achievement of C.A. and Black isle, like you say.

I did not play or know the setting before, which made discovering it in game all the more fun, but I had a look at the P&P books afterwards, and I like them a lot, too. The ideas, the writing, and the art by Toni DiTerlizzi as well. It's all pretty unique, completely different from something like Forgotten Realms. And IMO it was pretty daring to create and publish the P&P system, too, but maybe you're right and it's even more risky in a videogame.
Well, it was not really meant to compare the risks in the two media.

In the world of PC RPG, they had a formula for success (Baldur's Gate games for a coming of age story with combat; Icewind Dale for party combat, light on story). Instead they tried something different, heavy on narration that did not exclude reflection and philosophical themes. Kudos for that.

However, now that a comparison has been mentioned, let us consider the pen and paper RPG scene whence these games were drawing inspiration from:

Actually, RPG (pen and paper ones) that fostered gameplay heavy on narration had long existed. To have a handful of the most representative:

- Professor M. A. R. Barker's Empire of the Petal Throne (1974). Set in Tekumel, one of the most original, suggestive, deep and rewarding RPG settings ever.

- Ars Magica (1988). Lots of innovations. Focus on narration and RPing. Featuring a wonderful magic system. For anyone who likes playing wizards, but not only, since, with the Wizard + Companions + Grogs system, you could be everything from an abbot to a troubator to a common soldier or a sergeant, while still keeping your wizardly main character. It begot WhiteWolf's sequel Mage: The Ascension, set in modern times and connected with WhiteWolf's World of Darkness.

- Vampire: The Masquerade (1991). This game met even more success and got lots of spinoffs that formed together the World of Darkness. There was a big emphasis on narration and politics, but old-fashioned game directors still could turn game sessions into dice-throwing fests if they were so inclined. A game that offered the players and game directors tools for making their characters, PC and NPC, feel special.

- Then, with RPG focused on narration and featuring more mature themes being all the rage, AD&D saw the publication of the setting Planescape (1994). The setting had two great virtues: One, it was different (and the box was beautiful), it was suggestive and it encouraged stories that were different, even rather weird, compared to other game worlds for D&D. However, a lot depended on the Dungeon Master (and the players) to study and make all feel alive. Especially, narrative conflict resolution was not encouraged by the system (as, IIRC, it used standard 2.5 rules), so there was dice-throwing galore, just like in any D&D setting. Although you could jump to different planes to have very diverse adventures, which takes us to another great virtue of the setting:

Second, access from Sigil, the seal of the planes, to the Primary planes was restricted (as it had to be, lest the continuity in places like Krynn or the Forgotten Realms be altered), however, there was such a big variety of planes, that the shrewd Dungeon Master could plug any kind of material written for other settings into any Planescape campaign. You could play (with just a few changes), for example, Temple of Elemental Evil (published for Grewhawk), and even have some metaplot elements from an even larger story thrown in, if you wanted that.

Five years later, Planescape: Torment was published for PC :-) As we know, it shaked the world of PC games and paved the way for later titles. Sort of (to bring an arguable comparison!) what Twin Peaks did for the world of tv series in the USA.

Nice to see interest in good RPG in this thrend. May there be love for them good games, old and new. :-) Peace ♥
Post edited December 15, 2019 by Carradice
Posted December 15, 2019
One thing on top of my wishlist the past 20 years is that someone could remake for the pc a game based on DARK SUN setting based on the mechanics and RPG elements of Planescape: Torment. I know it won’t happen, after all I still get to play it from time to time when I find enough free time time. ( I have all the modules - 2nd edition). Cheers
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Community
General discussionA look back at Planescape: Torment as it celebrates its 20th anniversary(52 posts)(52 posts)
(52 posts)