It seems that you're using an outdated browser. Some things may not work as they should (or don't work at all).
We suggest you upgrade newer and better browser like: Chrome, Firefox, Internet Explorer or Opera

×
FWIW, there are ways of designing games for any time you like saves and for checkpoint saves that work well. The problem tends to be that devs are too lazy to do it in many cases and really people are going to manage their saves how they like.

Save scumming is far less of an issue if you've got limited health, limited healing and/or limited breaks in the action. If you're saving too often and you're health keeps decreasing, you can hit a point where it just gets worse than if you're more evenly spacing your saves.
avatar
GameRager: Well if there's reviews/etc to back it up then fine....as for the balanced start aspect: Imo not all levels are geared towards it....especially the ones filled with multiple mini-bosses in Doom2 and/or playing on the highest difficulties in general.
Nightmare difficulty aside (which was never balanced in any meaningful way) they're all balanced for it, and designed that way; the level editor they used simply works by launching the game and placing the player on the level that's being edited with the normal starting equipment. That's how Romero designed all his level, and I'm pretty sure the others did too. In fact it would be very difficult not to balance the levels like this, because you have no way knowing how the player comes equipped from the previous level (unless you always end the level with a bunch of pickups and fix the order of levels early on). They might've wasted all their ammo and health, or they're good and they come packed full of health & armor & ammo. Yes, some of the levels are difficult (by design). And as you've evidently discovered, they're massively easier if you don't play them the way they were designed.

To me, most games are about telling a story for the most part. The mechanics simply serve to allow one to experience/be involved with said story in many cases.
I wish I could say that, but the stories I've seen in games rarely hold a candle to Hollywood garbage (which I generally don't watch coz it's so bad). Admittedly many games appear to be confused about what they're trying to be; that ends up being frustrating for me because I'm stuck between poorly told garbage story and poorly thought out game mechanics.

So I've largely given up looking for stories in games, what I want instead is good gameplay (and I can't imagine what gameplay could be if it doesn't challenge me in some way; making choices in a choose-your-adventure or VN doesn't count) first and foremost, then if possible, an experience, an atmosphere, something like that. Encounter design (and resultant difficulty, strategic considerations, etc.) play a big role in defining gameplay. I'm not after clicking a button and watching virtual blood fly, I could click icons on my desktop if I were hungry to click things (not that I have a desktop). Unfortunately a good number of games fail to deliver on this front too and in that case I don't care much whether it's checkpoints or quicksaves, I probably won't enjoy the game anyway.

But if they have had competent designers and they've gone out of the way to properly design & balance levels and create interesting encounters, then I'm in for a treat (that would be ruined by savescumming).

As I said before it's ok if they place them well, but sometimes they don't & I dislike not having an alternative save/etc system for such poor placement in some games.
Oh I agree that any game should allow you to cheat when the designers haven't done a good job and you get frustrated with it.

Also, the dev can choose how they want you to play but ultimately it's up to the player I would think....and if one has fun then that's all that/most of what should matter right?
Sure. By all means, devs should include casualmode/cheats/custom difficulties/what have you so people can play it just for the story or try and enjoy it while suffering a disability that makes the normal level of difficulty too much.

Just because a fear is seen as irrational by some, that doesn't make it any less "real" to those who have such.

Also, I have played games with poor checkpoints(Like Headhunter 2's end stages which are hard as hell and the checkpoints are very far apart) and found it less making me afraid/tense and more frustrated/wanting to shut the game off and never finish it.

Games should sometimes take one out of their comfort zone, but not to the point of making the game's only methods of completion to be too frustrating to those who play.
I agree! The point of checkpoints & limited saves is not to make it hard as hell. Balancing a game and working out difficulty levels is an art in its own right, and so many games end with some frustrating difficulty spikes as well as laughably easy sections (regardless of what kind of save system they went for). But if there's no system in place to pace the saves, it easily swings too far in the other direction where it's laughably easy and loses most sense of tension. And that's why I'd rather err on the side of difficult and let the player get aid (e.g. drop difficulty or cheat) when it's too much.

Limited manual saves(through pickup tokens/etc or a set number at level start) seems fair as well, if done right. Res Evil 1/2/3/etc did this right, imo.
Never played, I wish they'd release on GOG.

I'm on the "other" side. I love to consume as much as possible(WITHIN REASON) if the stuff has good gameplay/plot/characters/etc. Challenge to me can be fun, but it is not always why I play....and often if a game section is too difficult i'll either drop a game entirely or(more often) put it aside till later.
Then it sounds like you need custom or easy difficulties and/or cheats that let you waltz thru the encounters that are designed to challenge.

But what do you mean by good gameplay? In my view challenge is the very thing that motivates gameplay; there is no gameplay without challenge, at most there's a sandbox. That makes for a simulation, not so much a game.

Some games don't allow cheats/have cheat modes(or easy modes) and sometimes one doesn't like the standard method of cheating for various reasons, yet they want to play some titles anyways.
Yeah, it sucks, but then instead of arguing against checkpoints, shouldn't one be arguing for having easy modes or whatever?
avatar
hedwards: FWIW, there are ways of designing games for any time you like saves and for checkpoint saves that work well. The problem tends to be that devs are too lazy to do it in many cases and really people are going to manage their saves how they like.

Save scumming is far less of an issue if you've got limited health, limited healing and/or limited breaks in the action. If you're saving too often and you're health keeps decreasing, you can hit a point where it just gets worse than if you're more evenly spacing your saves.
Which game does this well?

Oh hey, speaking of Evil Genius.. I guess strategy games are a little different in this regard. In part because your actions have such far reaching consequences, and the early game can matter as much as the late game & everything in between. I guess I'm approaching this discussion more from FPS & action (and similar) perspective.

I agree re. dev laziness. It's easier to let the player figure it out than to design, test, balance, test... properly.

Doom has limited healing but scumming your game still makes it massively easier.
Post edited May 13, 2019 by clarry
avatar
clarry: Nightmare difficulty aside (which was never balanced in any meaningful way) they're all balanced for it, and designed that way; the level editor they used simply works by launching the game and placing the player on the level that's being edited with the normal starting equipment. That's how Romero designed all his level, and I'm pretty sure the others did too. In fact it would be very difficult not to balance the levels like this, because you have no way knowing how the player comes equipped from the previous level (unless you always end the level with a bunch of pickups and fix the order of levels early on). They might've wasted all their ammo and health, or they're good and they come packed full of health & armor & ammo. Yes, some of the levels are difficult (by design). And as you've evidently discovered, they're massively easier if you don't play them the way they were designed.
=========================
I wish I could say that, but the stories I've seen in games rarely hold a candle to Hollywood garbage (which I generally don't watch coz it's so bad). Admittedly many games appear to be confused about what they're trying to be; that ends up being frustrating for me because I'm stuck between poorly told garbage story and poorly thought out game mechanics.
==========================
So I've largely given up looking for stories in games, what I want instead is good gameplay (and I can't imagine what gameplay could be if it doesn't challenge me in some way; making choices in a choose-your-adventure or VN doesn't count) first and foremost, then if possible, an experience, an atmosphere, something like that. Encounter design (and resultant difficulty, strategic considerations, etc.) play a big role in defining gameplay. I'm not after clicking a button and watching virtual blood fly, I could click icons on my desktop if I were hungry to click things (not that I have a desktop). Unfortunately a good number of games fail to deliver on this front too and in that case I don't care much whether it's checkpoints or quicksaves, I probably won't enjoy the game anyway.


But if they have had competent designers and they've gone out of the way to properly design & balance levels and create interesting encounters, then I'm in for a treat (that would be ruined by savescumming).
=============================
Oh I agree that any game should allow you to cheat when the designers haven't done a good job and you get frustrated with it.
=============================
I agree! The point of checkpoints & limited saves is not to make it hard as hell. Balancing a game and working out difficulty levels is an art in its own right, and so many games end with some frustrating difficulty spikes as well as laughably easy sections (regardless of what kind of save system they went for). But if there's no system in place to pace the saves, it easily swings too far in the other direction where it's laughably easy and loses most sense of tension. And that's why I'd rather err on the side of difficult and let the player get aid (e.g. drop difficulty or cheat) when it's too much.
=============================
Never played, I wish they'd release on GOG.
=============================
Then it sounds like you need custom or easy difficulties and/or cheats that let you waltz thru the encounters that are designed to challenge.

But what do you mean by good gameplay? In my view challenge is the very thing that motivates gameplay; there is no gameplay without challenge, at most there's a sandbox. That makes for a simulation, not so much a game.
=============================
FWIW, there are ways of designing games for any time you like saves and for checkpoint saves that work well. The problem tends to be that devs are too lazy to do it in many cases and really people are going to manage their saves how they like.
=============================
Which game does this well?

Oh hey, speaking of Evil Genius.. I guess strategy games are a little different in this regard. In part because your actions have such far reaching consequences, and the early game can matter as much as the late game & everything in between. I guess I'm approaching this discussion more from FPS & action (and similar) perspective.

I agree re. dev laziness. It's easier to let the player figure it out than to design, test, balance, test... properly.

Doom has limited healing but scumming your game still makes it massively easier.
If the game isn't balanced for all difficulties with such a setup then it isn't fully balanced, now is it? ;) :P :)

As for easier: Even with saving I still had difficulties with some areas on higher difficulties.
(Awaits the eventual n00bshaming)
=====================================
If you want to enjoy yourself/life you need to turn the old critical thinking off once in awhile. I do and can easily enjoy "popcorn flicks" and games others dislike just by enjoying the moment/story and not nitpicking the details/"problems" with such.

After all, every story can't be Shakespeare or Joyce level, now can it? :)
=======================================
1. VNs/CYOA choices can be challenging/intresting if implemented right/they affect outcome.

2. Clicking in games is part and parcel of the experience...well, unless you only use keyboard that is,.
====================================
Agreed....although I would've said "allowed you to do what you choose/you will" instead of saying cheat....to remain impartial/neutral.
===================================
Sounds fair...I just dislike those who say/think others are lesser because they save/cheat/etc & put such people down.
=================================
If you have a console, RE 1/0 are on gamecube(which plays on Wii), RE Veronica is on PS2, and there are others as well(RE4 is on Wii as well as PS2).
===================================
I don't need easy modes/cheats all the time, perse.....just for times when the game becomes insanely difficult/the devs made poor design decisions/to allow me to use my irl time wisely & be able to take breaks/etc.

As for good gameplay: Things I like subjectively...like no timed sections(or a good time limit), fun and enganing combat(in such games), easy control schemes(but not too simplistic), etc.
=======================================
True
===============================
To me Doom(some areas) will be hard irregardless of saves....but that's just my opinion.
avatar
GameRager: If the game isn't balanced for all difficulties with such a setup then it isn't fully balanced, now is it? ;) :P :)
Right, nightmare was never intended to be fair or balanced in any way. They just threw it in. Playing that is a special kind of challenge in its own right, in spirit somewhat like speedrunning. In the Doom community, Ultra Violence is the go-to difficulty for experienced players who want the challenge as it was balanced by map authors.

As for easier: Even with saving I still had difficulties with some areas on higher difficulties.
For sure, Doom 2 (and Plutonia) do offer some pretty tough levels. They were still balanced for pistol start though, and are both quite playable that way!
If you want to enjoy yourself/life you need to turn the old critical thinking off once in awhile. I do and can easily enjoy "popcorn flicks" and games others dislike just by enjoying the moment/story and not nitpicking the details/"problems" with such.
I don't think it's something I can simply turn off. I have hope that it's easier for some game designer to turn it on and eventually someone releases a game I really like.
After all, every story can't be Shakespeare or Joyce level, now can it? :)
Most of them just don't seem even half-decent. I think the situation is worse with games because the game developers are not story-tellers first, and the medium fights for their attention. Frankly I don't think games are a very good storytelling medium, unless we're talking walking sims or VNs or others such games that really are almost exclusively story focused with little actual gameplay. Doesn't help that, for the longest time, games were stuck emulating movies, badly. Nowadays it seems like the big studios have the resources to pull off something that doesn't look simply like a bad emulation of the movie format, so maybe it's changing, but I hardly play new games.

In the end though, I tend to prefer to enjoy a good story as a good story. I don't want to interrupt it with gameplay. And I don't like to interrupt gameplay with story. Allow me to play, or allow me to take in the story, don't force me to alternate arbitrarily.. this is assuming they can't somehow make the story seamlessly integrate with gameplay.
2. Clicking in games is part and parcel of the experience...well, unless you only use keyboard that is,.
That's focusing too much on the means as if it were the end. I don't play games so that I can click.
If you have a console, RE 1/0 are on gamecube(which plays on Wii), RE Veronica is on PS2, and there are others as well(RE4 is on Wii as well as PS2).
Don't have one.
I don't need easy modes/cheats all the time, perse.....just for times when the game becomes insanely difficult/the devs made poor design decisions/to allow me to use my irl time wisely & be able to take breaks/etc.
Yup. So you generally need a mode that doesn't get insanely difficult. Or cheats to get around it when it gets insanely difficult. Or just well designed games, but that's a big ask.

perse
It's hilarious when you spell it like that.
As for good gameplay: Things I like subjectively...like no timed sections(or a good time limit), fun and enganing combat(in such games), easy control schemes(but not too simplistic), etc.
That's .. hmm, not what I would call gameplay? (Except for combat)

To me Doom(some areas) will be hard irregardless of saves....but that's just my opinion.
Maybe they are hard, but saves make it much easier. Play through it without saves and then try again with saves, you'll see :-)
avatar
clarry: Right, nightmare was never intended to be fair or balanced in any way. They just threw it in. Playing that is a special kind of challenge in its own right, in spirit somewhat like speedrunning. In the Doom community, Ultra Violence is the go-to difficulty for experienced players who want the challenge as it was balanced by map authors.
==============================
For sure, Doom 2 (and Plutonia) do offer some pretty tough levels. They were still balanced for pistol start though, and are both quite playable that way!
==============================
I don't think it's something I can simply turn off. I have hope that it's easier for some game designer to turn it on and eventually someone releases a game I really like.
===========================
Most of them just don't seem even half-decent. I think the situation is worse with games because the game developers are not story-tellers first, and the medium fights for their attention. Frankly I don't think games are a very good storytelling medium, unless we're talking walking sims or VNs or others such games that really are almost exclusively story focused with little actual gameplay. Doesn't help that, for the longest time, games were stuck emulating movies, badly. Nowadays it seems like the big studios have the resources to pull off something that doesn't look simply like a bad emulation of the movie format, so maybe it's changing, but I hardly play new games.

In the end though, I tend to prefer to enjoy a good story as a good story. I don't want to interrupt it with gameplay. And I don't like to interrupt gameplay with story. Allow me to play, or allow me to take in the story, don't force me to alternate arbitrarily.. this is assuming they can't somehow make the story seamlessly integrate with gameplay.
===========================
That's focusing too much on the means as if it were the end. I don't play games so that I can click.
===========================
Don't have one.
========================
Yup. So you generally need a mode that doesn't get insanely difficult. Or cheats to get around it when it gets insanely difficult. Or just well designed games, but that's a big ask.
==============================

perse
avatar
clarry: It's hilarious when you spell it like that.
=============================

As for good gameplay: Things I like subjectively...like no timed sections(or a good time limit), fun and enganing combat(in such games), easy control schemes(but not too simplistic), etc.
avatar
clarry: That's .. hmm, not what I would call gameplay? (Except for combat)
===========================

To me Doom(some areas) will be hard irregardless of saves....but that's just my opinion.
avatar
clarry: Maybe they are hard, but saves make it much easier. Play through it without saves and then try again with saves, you'll see :-)
Sounds fair, but then they should've rebalanced the new difficulty for restarting levels on such difficulty to give higher health/more weapons/etc. I don;t think they'd have had much trouble with such, at any rate(feel free to correct me if i'm wrong, though).
=====================================
If by balanced and playable you mean barely playable and frustrating then ok. ;) :P
====================================
The "problem" here is that many just design as they feel and often make mistakes. As such, it's easier to try bturning it off than to expect perfection(subjective of course) in every piece of media.
====================================
Quality is of course subjective, and again they are more enjoyable if you overlook some things......like all the area design details that wouldn't make sense irl(like the opening street in Duke3d, for example.....or rooms that serve as warehouses with no doors to get good in and out, as two examples).
====================================
True, but in many games you need to click to do things. Also, the mouse is a versatile controller option for some devs/players(some disabled people even use it if they have issues with keyboard play).
====================================
You should get a ps2 then....they're dirty cheap online and the games are often cheap in secondhand stores(barring the rarer titles).
===========================
Exactly.
==========================
Did I spell it wrong? If so, my bad. 0.o
=========================
Many would, though.....to me, anything interactive(outside stuff like cutscenes...unless they are also interactive) in a game is gameplay.
=======================
I would, but replaying a level because some imp/cyberdemon got in a lucky shot doesn't sound like fun to me. Also, I often have to limit my game time and this means saving to continue later.
avatar
GameRager: Did I spell it wrong? If so, my bad. 0.o
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/per_se#Adverb
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/perse#Noun_3
avatar
GameRager: Did I spell it wrong? If so, my bad. 0.o
avatar
clarry: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/per_se#Adverb
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/perse#Noun_3
Dammit, now I know i've been making a perse out of myself. :\
avatar
clarry: Which game does this well?

Oh hey, speaking of Evil Genius.. I guess strategy games are a little different in this regard. In part because your actions have such far reaching consequences, and the early game can matter as much as the late game & everything in between. I guess I'm approaching this discussion more from FPS & action (and similar) perspective.

I agree re. dev laziness. It's easier to let the player figure it out than to design, test, balance, test... properly.

Doom has limited healing but scumming your game still makes it massively easier.
I never found that to be particularly true. The further you get into it the more likely you are to get your ass handed to you. Especially when you're playing with monsters respawning.

You're never going to prevent players from save scumming without resorting to cheap tricks like forcing checkpoint saves, but at some point, it's just not worth forcing.

I personally thought that Doom and most of the earlier FPS were rather challenging even with the saves. I don't typically bother to save mid level as the levels of games of that vintage tend to be rather short. With better AI, it would have been even less of an issue. Doom and a lot of those games also had relatively short episodes that could be skipped which is arguably an even bigger issue.

Strategy games can be a bit different as the "levels" where they exist can take many hours to accomplish.
avatar
Ancient-Red-Dragon: Painkiller: Black Edition. IMO it is also the undisputed King of all FPS games ever made.
Undisputed is not undisputed. :P

Painkiller is a good shooter and I like it. But while I got stuck at some level of the Painkiller campaign and never could finish it both Serious Sam games are on the very short list of games I actually have finished. Even the final boss fights in these games were fun for me. But maybe that's only because of the "Tourist" difficulty level. :)

But disagreeing about what's the best shooter should not be a reason to downvote a post. At least it's not for me.
Post edited May 15, 2019 by eiii
I can't go back to the super human "walking" speed of 90s FPSs. Geez... I don't understand how I could play like that (yeah, better reflexes as a youngster and all that, but still...). If these 90s style FPS have a modern speed AKA are SLOW, I'm interested haha.
avatar
Ancient-Red-Dragon: Painkiller: Black Edition. IMO it is also the undisputed King of all FPS games ever made.
Well that explains your avatar :)
Hedon

https://store.steampowered.com/app/1072150/Hedon/
avatar
amok: Hedon
Unless I'm mistaken Hedon is using a Doom engine variant, making what has been achieved with it very cool!
(And I 'think' it also runs on Linux, which is excellent.)

Here's an interesting review of Hedon by Icarus Lives: LINK

The review may be a bit outdated as I believe the developer has made some changes to the game since then.
avatar
pkk234: Wrath: Aeon of Ruin
From what I've read (Here) Wrath: Aeon of Ruin WILL be released on GOG in the future! ^_^
(And just as Hedon is using a Doom engine variant, Wrath is using the Darkplaces Quake engine port.)
avatar
i_hope_you_rot: Project Warlock
As soon as the Linux version drops on GOG I'm picking it up. The waiting is killing me. XD

I'll probably also snag both Hedon and Wrath when they arrive on GOG as well.

With Ion Maiden using the Build engine we've got three of the major classic DOS era FPS engines commercially revived.

I really wouldn't mind seeing more games made using these engines.

It is truly a great time for classic FPS fans right now.
Post edited May 17, 2019 by SpellSword
avatar
darthspudius: What gets me about this "revival" is that they keep making the same stupid mistakes with checkpoints and no quick saving etc. Wouldn't catch me playing a '90s shooter without a save system.
Dusk and amid evil both have quicksaves, pretty sure ion maiden does too but i'd need to check to make sure
I stumbled upon this yesterday, instantly fell in love with the art style and picked it up immediately! I'm only on the second level, though the levels range from 30 min to an hour. Game has 10 levels reportedly.

For those interested the game feels most like Hexen. While level progression is linear the levels are very large and complex, requiring you to go back and forth gathering important items which lead to other important items which open a door that... so on etc.